This is a placeholder text
Group text
by Czech DDR Lover on 26 May 2011 - 20:05
It's No different than what is agreed upon by buyer and seller when buying a house, car, refrigerator...whatever. These agreements are a binding contract between the parties signing the contract....
It has been agreed upon by both parties who are part of the transaction.
Even in the case of Denwolf, who registered her own litter and named/tattooed/microchipped each and every puppy in the litter...AKC saw fit to allow changes that were outside her recorded paperwork for said pups. INCLUDING that of changing one of her pups names that SHE had registerred. This is even against their OWN rule criteria...for protecting us as breeders from having this occur. SO much for policing their own.
There is good reason why no other registries allow this practice.
In the case of name's being changed for working or show dogs...
There is no way to verify that the NEW dog is THE dog with the new name.
There is no way AKC will notify OFA, Home Again, AVID..etc. to make sure all those numbers follow the newly named dog, and are corrected and updated.
by Czech DDR Lover on 26 May 2011 - 21:05
Mystere,
I can't help but ask this...I'm just so very curious...what reason could you have for changing your dogs name, that is so important to have made you do so, but yet is so unimportant to stand up for when asked why it was done?
Jean
I can't help but ask this...I'm just so very curious...what reason could you have for changing your dogs name, that is so important to have made you do so, but yet is so unimportant to stand up for when asked why it was done?
Jean
by Mystere on 26 May 2011 - 21:05
Jean,
I realize that you don't train, trial or title your dogs. Therefore, you apparenlty are not aware that in trials, the dogs' tattoos and microchips ARE verified routinely. You apparently are not aware that the scorebooks, with those tattoos and microchip numbers are always matched up to verify that it goes with THE dog it is supposed to. Bottom-line: the paperwork and the dog MUST match up, whether for trials, or shows. In fact, I'd almost say (having served as both trial and show secretaries) that it is even more rigorously administered in shows, because that's where the most cheating efforts tend to occur. (follow the money)
quote by Czech ddr lover: "We don't want them to carry a name like
Little foo foo's wonder dog from wherever. Nor do we want them to be carrying another breeder's kennel name, which is often one of the biggest reasons why other breeders CHANGE the names. "
That seems to be the essence of the angst: rivalry and competition among breeders. I get it. But, the ego-driven issues of breeders has nothing to do with the dog owners.
Your house analogy is fallacious. Barring legally valid covenants and local building ordinances, because I bought a house from you does not mean that I can't change it by painting it; adding onto it; plowing under the landscaping and replacing it with concrete; building a bomb-shelter; etc.
If breeders are as concerned as you appear to be that the kennel names (and that is, after all, apparently all you really care about) are not changed, then it is very simple: register the puppies (not just the litter). Spend $10 more a pup and you won't have to worry so much about someone changing the dog's name without your permission. If that seems outrageous to you, then don't pay, and continue to bitch and moan about it.
I realize that you don't train, trial or title your dogs. Therefore, you apparenlty are not aware that in trials, the dogs' tattoos and microchips ARE verified routinely. You apparently are not aware that the scorebooks, with those tattoos and microchip numbers are always matched up to verify that it goes with THE dog it is supposed to. Bottom-line: the paperwork and the dog MUST match up, whether for trials, or shows. In fact, I'd almost say (having served as both trial and show secretaries) that it is even more rigorously administered in shows, because that's where the most cheating efforts tend to occur. (follow the money)
quote by Czech ddr lover: "We don't want them to carry a name like
Little foo foo's wonder dog from wherever. Nor do we want them to be carrying another breeder's kennel name, which is often one of the biggest reasons why other breeders CHANGE the names. "
That seems to be the essence of the angst: rivalry and competition among breeders. I get it. But, the ego-driven issues of breeders has nothing to do with the dog owners.
Your house analogy is fallacious. Barring legally valid covenants and local building ordinances, because I bought a house from you does not mean that I can't change it by painting it; adding onto it; plowing under the landscaping and replacing it with concrete; building a bomb-shelter; etc.
If breeders are as concerned as you appear to be that the kennel names (and that is, after all, apparently all you really care about) are not changed, then it is very simple: register the puppies (not just the litter). Spend $10 more a pup and you won't have to worry so much about someone changing the dog's name without your permission. If that seems outrageous to you, then don't pay, and continue to bitch and moan about it.
by Mystere on 26 May 2011 - 21:05
Jean,
It is not a matter of "standing up for." It is MY dog and business, plain and simple. I fail to see why YOU would be so concerned--after all, I have never purchased anything from you. What do YOU, or any other breeder who seems so invested in my reasons, care? It is MY dog to do with as I please. I have no intention of "debating" with anyone about whether my reasons are "good enough for them," "acceptable" to them, or anything else. That is particularly the case with respect to any breeders, whether they train/trial/title their dogs and breeding stock, or not. But, I am willing to play quid pro quo, if you also want to answer to me about your breeding practices.
Oddly, it seems to be breeders who are obsessing over why I (whom they don't know and to whom they know they never sold a puppy) changed a dog's name.
It is not a matter of "standing up for." It is MY dog and business, plain and simple. I fail to see why YOU would be so concerned--after all, I have never purchased anything from you. What do YOU, or any other breeder who seems so invested in my reasons, care? It is MY dog to do with as I please. I have no intention of "debating" with anyone about whether my reasons are "good enough for them," "acceptable" to them, or anything else. That is particularly the case with respect to any breeders, whether they train/trial/title their dogs and breeding stock, or not. But, I am willing to play quid pro quo, if you also want to answer to me about your breeding practices.
Oddly, it seems to be breeders who are obsessing over why I (whom they don't know and to whom they know they never sold a puppy) changed a dog's name.
by Czech DDR Lover on 26 May 2011 - 23:05
Mystere,
Good grief... it's a little far out there for you to state I or others are obsessing over you changing the name of your dog. You're the one that posted this, did you forget whilst in your frenzy to protect your reasons for having done the name change?? Posted by you On a public forum for others to comment on? Not sure when it became law that I have to train and title my own dogs. This is but a typical "difuse and change the subject method" to steer thought away from the topic and my response to you... I could give a care whether you change your dog's name or not. I have no interest in your dog whatsoever...It's AKC's policy that I am against, because it's a problem in the making and there is no reason for this to be allowed.
I choose to send my dogs out to be titled...nothing wrong with that Mystere. Breeding is my first love, and I have been breeding and training my own dogs for many, many years. My time with my dogs is spent doing fun things such as herding or hiking, but for titling, I choose to send them out, which is my right. I've been in a club, I've worked my own dogs.. I just don't have the time to train full time in order to title them. I just sent out two of my young dogs to Slovakia.. my own home bred progeny...to train and title under a world class trainer there, who previously trained one of the world team members for the US this past year, before the dog was sold to a person here in the states. Yes.. I know all about scorebooks Mystere.. I had to update the dogs with two new microchip numbers because they wouldn't accept the ones used here in the states, with the airports now using more low frequency readers when they scan there. SO dogs...AND scorebooks reflect BOTH the microchip numbers as well as the areas they were inserted on each dog.
I also have two other of my home bred dogs being trained for titling here in the US.
Some of my pups are not sold into homes to be titled...
They go into working homes...SAR and working herding homes in particular.
And also for Therapy dogs , for children that don't speak, using dogs in therapy in order to draw them out of themselves, and to assist soldiers with PTSD, to name a few. I don't think it necessary to make a career out of shutzhund for my titled dogs...that's much like being a full time college student, isn't it?
Your point with this?
It's not that difficult to tattoo a dog's ear... now suddenly.. one dog becomes another, for purposes of verification at a trial etc. That's exactly why the working clubs such as WDA are against this policy as well.
They certainly don't have the time or resources to verify that the dog is who it's presented to be.
"My post was edited here and removed because I wrongly responded to information I later learned was incorrect"
But I would venture to say I highly doubt that you will get things changed with the SV.
Good grief... it's a little far out there for you to state I or others are obsessing over you changing the name of your dog. You're the one that posted this, did you forget whilst in your frenzy to protect your reasons for having done the name change?? Posted by you On a public forum for others to comment on? Not sure when it became law that I have to train and title my own dogs. This is but a typical "difuse and change the subject method" to steer thought away from the topic and my response to you... I could give a care whether you change your dog's name or not. I have no interest in your dog whatsoever...It's AKC's policy that I am against, because it's a problem in the making and there is no reason for this to be allowed.
I choose to send my dogs out to be titled...nothing wrong with that Mystere. Breeding is my first love, and I have been breeding and training my own dogs for many, many years. My time with my dogs is spent doing fun things such as herding or hiking, but for titling, I choose to send them out, which is my right. I've been in a club, I've worked my own dogs.. I just don't have the time to train full time in order to title them. I just sent out two of my young dogs to Slovakia.. my own home bred progeny...to train and title under a world class trainer there, who previously trained one of the world team members for the US this past year, before the dog was sold to a person here in the states. Yes.. I know all about scorebooks Mystere.. I had to update the dogs with two new microchip numbers because they wouldn't accept the ones used here in the states, with the airports now using more low frequency readers when they scan there. SO dogs...AND scorebooks reflect BOTH the microchip numbers as well as the areas they were inserted on each dog.
I also have two other of my home bred dogs being trained for titling here in the US.
Some of my pups are not sold into homes to be titled...
They go into working homes...SAR and working herding homes in particular.
And also for Therapy dogs , for children that don't speak, using dogs in therapy in order to draw them out of themselves, and to assist soldiers with PTSD, to name a few. I don't think it necessary to make a career out of shutzhund for my titled dogs...that's much like being a full time college student, isn't it?
Your point with this?
It's not that difficult to tattoo a dog's ear... now suddenly.. one dog becomes another, for purposes of verification at a trial etc. That's exactly why the working clubs such as WDA are against this policy as well.
They certainly don't have the time or resources to verify that the dog is who it's presented to be.
"My post was edited here and removed because I wrongly responded to information I later learned was incorrect"
But I would venture to say I highly doubt that you will get things changed with the SV.
by Czech DDR Lover on 26 May 2011 - 23:05
|
From Mystere: "That seems to be the essence of the angst: rivalry and competition among breeders. I get it. But, the ego-driven issues of breeders has nothing to do with the dog owners." I disagree... It does if a signed contract is put into place before the breeder agrees to sell that owner their puppy. "Your house analogy is fallacious. Barring legally valid covenants and local building ordinances, because I bought a house from you does not mean that I can't change it by painting it; adding onto it; plowing under the landscaping and replacing it with concrete; building a bomb-shelter; etc." You can certainly paint it, add onto it, or plow it under, but I'd guarantee unless you break it apart into new pieces, you won't be changing the legal land description of that house you bought! And even then..the original would stay with the same description...and the new pieces of land would carry the new numbers. "If breeders are as concerned as you appear to be that the kennel names (and that is, after all, apparently all you really care about) are not changed, then it is very simple: register the puppies (not just the litter). Spend $10 more a pup and you won't have to worry so much about someone changing the dog's name without your permission. Mystere...try very hard to look deeper into this issue...it's not just about kennel names being changed, although that is a big part of it. It's more about tracking pedigrees and genetic lineages. If you read what Denwolf posted, you would know that in her registering and naming each pup within her own litter didn't protect her right to name her pups with the identification she chose, so you might want to go back and read her post a bit more... "If that seems outrageous to you, then don't pay, and continue to bitch and moan about it." Not bitching and moaning about it Mystere...I'm trying to work within the system to get things changed...this post here on this thread, on my part, is but a means to bring this problem to the forefront and make people aware... so thank you for helping to do so. Yours is a great example of people changing a name... because you can |
by DenWolf on 27 May 2011 - 01:05
Why do I want to know the reason for the name change.......
Well.....
First off, I feel as Jean does... A public statement of fact, that it was done, it took about 9 days, and look how easy it was, and all it took was money...
But the reason is personal... but yet posted on a very public forum read all over the world.
So I am really trying to understand the other point of view...
Not asking for debate over the reason.. or if it is good enough...
Just trying to look at it from your point of view.
Am I "obsessed" with the reason??
"Obsessed" is a bit of a reach...
Good breeders often have great attention to detail.. it makes for healthy, well bred dogs.. for many reasons.
As one of those "obsessed, crazy" breeders, I am ALWAYS concerned over where any puppy I produce winds up.. my attention to details is what caught the mistake discussed here...
Following through with the pups and the owners is paramount.. it takes a LOT of hard work and perhaps "obsession" to details to better our breed.. or any breed, for that matter.
The word "breeder" has become such a derogatory term anymore...
"breeders" are so evil
"breeders" just care about money
"breeders" cause all of the county's dog pounds to be full....
God forbid a "breeder" actually breaks even from doing what we love to do...
The veterinarians profit from breeders
The pet stores profit from breeders
The boarding kennels profit from breeders
The dog trainers, pet sitters, aupply companies...(shall I go on) profit from breeders...
The ONE AWESOME THING I can "profit" from without feeling persecuted, guilted, or just plain like scum for what I love to do.. ....
IS
Feel the wonderful warm feeling when I see a person ACCOMPLISH something great with one of my puppies.. be it find a lost person... a missing body.. get a BH title... a TD title... or even compete in a regional or nationals level dog sport competition.
That was special... and now the AKC says.. "HEY, GO PEEL OFF THAT KENNEL NAME... CALL IT DENWOLF'S NERVEBAG IF YOU LIKE!! WE JUST WANT ANOTHER 19 BUCKS."
That's what this is about..
AND that EVERYBODY who doesn't track pedigrees with AKC numbers will NEVER have a clue that MAYBE that great dog they met came from a selfless, attention to detail, "obsessed" breeder... who basically just lost their identity.
But hey, it IS your dog..
And my GMC Safari is a minivan.. but I want to have it called a Ferrari on the registartion... you think the state of Colorado will let me change it if I give them 19 bucks??
Well.....
First off, I feel as Jean does... A public statement of fact, that it was done, it took about 9 days, and look how easy it was, and all it took was money...
But the reason is personal... but yet posted on a very public forum read all over the world.
So I am really trying to understand the other point of view...
Not asking for debate over the reason.. or if it is good enough...
Just trying to look at it from your point of view.
Am I "obsessed" with the reason??
"Obsessed" is a bit of a reach...
Good breeders often have great attention to detail.. it makes for healthy, well bred dogs.. for many reasons.
As one of those "obsessed, crazy" breeders, I am ALWAYS concerned over where any puppy I produce winds up.. my attention to details is what caught the mistake discussed here...
Following through with the pups and the owners is paramount.. it takes a LOT of hard work and perhaps "obsession" to details to better our breed.. or any breed, for that matter.
The word "breeder" has become such a derogatory term anymore...
"breeders" are so evil
"breeders" just care about money
"breeders" cause all of the county's dog pounds to be full....
God forbid a "breeder" actually breaks even from doing what we love to do...
The veterinarians profit from breeders
The pet stores profit from breeders
The boarding kennels profit from breeders
The dog trainers, pet sitters, aupply companies...(shall I go on) profit from breeders...
The ONE AWESOME THING I can "profit" from without feeling persecuted, guilted, or just plain like scum for what I love to do.. ....
IS
Feel the wonderful warm feeling when I see a person ACCOMPLISH something great with one of my puppies.. be it find a lost person... a missing body.. get a BH title... a TD title... or even compete in a regional or nationals level dog sport competition.
That was special... and now the AKC says.. "HEY, GO PEEL OFF THAT KENNEL NAME... CALL IT DENWOLF'S NERVEBAG IF YOU LIKE!! WE JUST WANT ANOTHER 19 BUCKS."
That's what this is about..
AND that EVERYBODY who doesn't track pedigrees with AKC numbers will NEVER have a clue that MAYBE that great dog they met came from a selfless, attention to detail, "obsessed" breeder... who basically just lost their identity.
But hey, it IS your dog..
And my GMC Safari is a minivan.. but I want to have it called a Ferrari on the registartion... you think the state of Colorado will let me change it if I give them 19 bucks??
by Mystere on 27 May 2011 - 02:05
Alright, your fear -biter Min Pin routine was amusing. Your obsession over WHY I changed my dog's name was even amusing. However.Jean, your bullshit LIES are not! My bitch HAS NEVER BEEN bred. Your statement above is pure lying bullshit. Typical. If you weren't so defensive about your breeding, you would not feel such a need to stoop to such blatant and unfounded lies. Obviously, you feel the need to ascribe and project your own nefarious motives on others with respect to breeding. No wonder you are so upset about name changing that would remove your kennel name!
I am done dealing with obsessive, breeders acting like fear-biter Min Pins. because someone changes a dog's name with no obligation to explain it to you. I am familiar with what you produce Jean.
Have fun continuing to yap about something that is none of your business.
by Mystere on 27 May 2011 - 02:05
Denwolf,
YOU have not been an offensive twit and I do understand your point. At this point, however, I am just too through with Jean and her lying. Perhaps you and I can discuss it privately at another time.
by Czech DDR Lover on 27 May 2011 - 04:05
Mystere I don't think there is reason you have to become vicious ...
I went back and reread your posts, because I mistakenly thought you stated that your bitch had whelped a litter while in Germany, and that after you had her name changed, siblings were no longer listed... however in re-reading it, I realize you were talking about siblings being listed on the pink papers when registering a full litter in Germany...vs not having siblings listed on pink papers, on an individually registered dog in Germany.
So...I have egg on my face for that assumption and my resulting statements.
However..they were not lies...they were responses to what I incorrectly thought had been said by you.
My mistake...and I do apologize to you for that.
However..they were not lies...they were responses to what I incorrectly thought had been said by you.
My mistake...and I do apologize to you for that.
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top