vom Banach - Page 4

Anyone who wants can buy a dog from a breeder who won't guarantee against unilateral HD or hips on raw fed dogs.  I won't be one of them. I hope that novices who do buy a puppy with these stipulations understand what they are agreeing to.

ONLY novices buy from these people. 

I dont know about that Jenn as a knowledgable person would be willing to go there because of bloodlines.. they want a Aron baby and thats the only place to get one.He's a dog worthy of producing top breeding dogs himself .Im buying a pup from the Czech republic and I get NO guarantee.Im willing to take the risk because I want a certain lineage.Remember the typical old guarantees(and many STILL say this)if you want your replacement dog ,you have to return the original????? WTH??? That was a standard,across the board guarantee and yet people still bought pups.No one questioned this and yet,I believe its one of the worst offenses...
The best thing is for novices to do their homework..read Contracts,ask questions,get REFERENCES!!! Because ultimately the contract isnt worth squat if the person behind it isnt ethical or fair.

Jill, I meant people with bizarre, 30- page contracts with silly loopholes (raw food, not keeping fully vaccinated, certain vitamins, stipulations on the way xrays are taken, harsh training (WTH???) methods, etc.) that everyone breaks at least one of. Most of those stipulations are at the breeder's discretion anyway...so what's a buyer to do? Argue? Prove receipts for all the vitamins they bought? Most fairly educated buyers are going to see the writing on the wall (read: wackjob!) and decide to go elsewhere. Novices have generally been educated to think that a lengthy contract means the breeder really cares, yada yada yada, falls for the "parents on premises" fallacy, etc. etc. 

I believe I said previously...who cares what it says if the person isn't a person of their word?

My own contract, though I usually forget to bring it out unless someone asks, lol, is a full-price buyback guarantee, at any point during the dog's life if something happens, and a full replacement or refund guarantee for a health issue where they want to keep the dog. That, to me, is about as close as I can get to guaranteeing that nothing horrible will happen to that dog because I misjudged the person. I hate selling dogs. But, I can't keep them all. I will only do it until dogs start having single pup litters. LOL

yeah,Contracts are getting bizarre I agree. I havent changed mine to reflect alot of my beliefs only because I would have that 30 page Contract,lol! I do understand a few of them though and it puts you in a odd place.As a Breeder,you obviously want your dog to pass their xrays but theres alot of "what ifs" ...the new one is spaying/neutering too early(4-6mos) Miss Shelly Riske brought this to my attention years back and it really opened my eyes.Back then,every vet would poo poo it.Now,the more knowledgable vets that do continueing ed seminars/classes or that specialize will agree,it DOES effect the outcome. So now,knowing this,should I change my contract to state "if you spay/neuter before 1 yr,etc,etc"...??? Its hard because you want them to be responsible and spay/neuter if they dont plan on breeding,dont want any accidental litters BUT you also dont want to be replacing a dog if you believe that certain factors played into it not passing.New things come up all the time.I want my clients feeding good foods but not the insane protein levels like 42%.I dont put that in my contract but,should I??? I dont think so but many have. I think my contract is pretty typical,the only thing I have in it that may be different is if the name is changed,the contract is void.Speaking of "The contract" though...if I have had problems,and thankfully they've been few,its the Client that doesnt want to follow the Contract.
I had a guy last year contact me to say his dog was limping severely.Came on all of a sudden,comes and goes..very painful..yada,yada. Pup is 8 mos old and he had had him on a real high protein kibble.I told him,its most likely Pano(I apply to the theory of "if it looks like a Duck,quacks like a Duck..probably a Duck" Take him off the high protein kibble and watch him. It kept coming and going over a few months and He took him to a Vet.The vet xrayed and said He had "thin bones"and gave him calcium supplements...WTF??? So Im like"Oh my GAAAWWD what a idiot"(the vet). Anyway,long story short,I got some references of good vets in his area & all is well,it was Pano. BUT,the guy wanted to have the dog replaced because of what stupid Vet#1 said.Was pissed that He paid $$ for a pup and then have a prob.I dont typically see Pano but the Client was feeding crazy high protein levels and his pup is pretty big boned. The other replacement dog had"Allergies"..itchy bumps. I dont know this for sure because She didnt want to spend the money to find out what was wrong.I said I'll take the dog back& replace but She has to pay shipping(per Contract) and She was pissed.So much for upholding my end of the Contract.Im sure theres plenty of Breeders who dont uphold their end of the bargain but for Me, its been the other way around.

If I can't make myself read a breeder's whole contract, I wouldn't buy the dog. I look at some that were normal contracts ten years ago and now they read like a bill being presented to the Senate.  

All the rules in the world won't take the place of good old-fashioned honesty, ethics and a dose of personal responsibility. I feel so strongly that all these rules, loopholes, etc. are actually doing more harm than good that I address that in my contract/guarantee. They set an adversarial tone right from the get-go. If you're breeding litter after litter, multiples every month, and care more about the almighty dollar than you do about the dogs, then I can see having an airtight contract- it's a business thing. I simply cannot view puppies that way and will always have a sense of responsibility to them, which is why I offer the lifetime buyback guarantee on all mine. Come to think of it, I've replaced dogs for other breeders, too, LOL!

This is my way of getting out of the "loophole" trap and trying to convey that I am not the enemy; we're on the same side, hopefully, and that's the dog's side! 

I t   i s   i m p o s s i b l e   t o   e n c o m p a s s   a l l   s i t u a t i o n s / c i r c umst ances   a n d   t h e i r   p o s s i b l e   s o l u t i o n s   t h a t   m a y   a r i s e   a t   a n y   p o i n t   d u r i n g   a   d o g' s   l i f e .   I n   li gh t   o f   t h i s   fact ,  B u y e r   a g r e e s   t o      c o n t a c t   Sel l e r   w ith   A N Y   p rob l e m s,   q ue st i o n s ,   o r   con cerns   t h a t   may arise   a t   a n y   t i m e .   T h i s   i s   n e v e r   a n   i n c o n v e n ie n ce!   S e l l e r   p r o m i s e s  t o   t ry   t o   w ork   w i t h   B u y e r   i n   a   f a i r   and   r e a s o n a b l e   m a n n e r   t o w a r d   a   s o l u t i o n   t h a t   i s   i n   t h e   b e s t     i n ter es t   o f   a l l   p a r t i e s   i n v o l v e d ,   b ut   f i r s t   and   f or em o s t , t h e   DOG!
 

No idea why that pasted so weird.

I think the problem with guarantees is that people don't think about what they really mean.

A guarantee from a breeder does not mean your puppy will not be dysplastic or have other problems.

It usually means that the breeder has some sort of replacement policy. You raise a puppy until 2 years and now it has bad hips, are you willing to give that dog back to a breeder and get another puppy? The dog you just gave back could go to a pet home or could be put to sleep. The replacement puppy will probably be from similar lines and has a chance to have that same problem again, then what? Or do you keep the original dog and spay or neuter it, then pay less for another puppy, now you have 2 dogs, do you have the space, time and money for both of them?

We have recently found several breeders who offer some form of hip and/or health guarantee even if they don't x-ray or health screen their breeding stock. A hip guarantee is an industry standard rather than a guarantee of quality.

We don't have a specific guarantee and only have a 1 page contract, but if anyone has any problems, we will do our very best to find a solution which works for the buyer.

- Louise Jollyman -
'It's Bode, he's famous!'

Funny topic - Pharaoh is an Aron son.  He is 4 1/2 years old now.

Julie had a different contract when I bought him.  If she had this contract back then I would not have bought a dog from her as I am a raw feeder.

Pharaoh is solidly built and super athletic, a solid black version of his father.  

Mariah came from Kim at http://www.justk9s.com/

Kim tests for everything.  I am very happy with my 9 month old puppy who also is fed raw. 

Michele

Beautiful boy Michele.Our Dino boy looks like a black version of Aron too.Come to think of it,He looks more like Aron then our Aron son,Lord,lol..other the color, that is.Dino has the same build,head,etc.Lord is much bigger then his pops.

It's always been our experience that the more "lengthy" the contract,
the more you need to pay an attorney to translate it for you

I guess we have been lucky, we purchase our dogs from
breeders with great reputations and that train/title their own dogs,
so never worry about a contract.
And we have never (nor will ever), fill out a "questionaire" ,
which is why we normally "buy European".
The dog is then ours, free and clear. Good or bad, no strings!

It has mostly appeared to us when reviewing contracts
from breeders for people, that there are tons of "grey" area,
and tons of "loopholes".
One of those being the "crippling hip dysplasia".
IOW, technically, according to most contracts, unless Fido
is dragging itself across the yard/room etc, you get nothing
from the breeder.  OFA diagnoses the dog as dysplastic, breeder
says, well, still walking. No replacement etc.
You have to feed a special diet, supplement etc. Crazy!

We always advise people, check out the dogs AFTER
you read the sellers sales contract!
If you still like the dogs after reading that,
then check the dogs out (hips/elbows, titles verified etc),
then either buy or don't.