Every dog? Training? Genetics? - Page 3

Ibrahim said "Kim, Alboo2009 & Daryl,
I find myself closer to your point of view, I think Daryl explained it best."

 agreeing with Ibrahim on this one.

Trainability which is the ability of a dog to be trained to do a function/job and which I assume is linked to dog's intelligence is a inherited trait of a bloodline or breed type. It is safe to assume if both parents were highly trainable that a good number of their offspring shall be the same, if both parents were trained for bomb detection and excelled at it, it is safe to assume that a good number of their offspring shall be able to be trained the same and excell on it but it is not correct to assume that their offspring without training will do the job without any training, therefore trainability is inherited but training to do a certain function/job is not, it is rather taught/trained. I am not teaching here, I am stating my understanding, Am I correct or wrong?

Thanks, Ibrahim

I think somehow those NVBK breeders are on to something. Wether it be a "trait", a inate or genetics, they got something going with breeding the Malinois. You can tell the dog knows stuff between 4-9 months roughly. I've lived threw it with my own Mal, she did stuff I never trained her to do (like - mentioned on first page). Another example : when she was a young pup she would never bark, ever. I tried to train her to bark or speak and she wouldn't. Not even for treats. The first time she ever barked was on the firing range about 7 months old. It was just me, my dog and my dad. My dad fired first and she ran right infront of him and barked, and barked, and barked she wouldn't stop. It's like she was fixated on barking from that moment on that day. This was the day she learned how to speak on command. I'm not saying dogs are self trained, but she did stuff outta nowhere that suggests a selective instinct type behavior. Like I said yesterday I dunno anything, I'm just sharing some time spent with my dog.

I believe you're correct, Ibraham.  To me, most of what trainability means is having good attention for the handler and a willingness to please.  Of course, other factors are at play, such as instincts required, the necessary drives, functionality of the senses, and structural capability to hold up to the work in question.  All of which are genetic, but not always inheritably gained in the offspring.

There are some behaviors you'll see that are genetic, without question, but not because the parent was trained for it and it became assumed somehow into it's genetics.  Take for example, the livestock tending behaviors of the german shepherd dog, where the dog will 'inherently' want to patrol the natural bordering features of the landscape surrounding the flock, such as furrows, gametrails, mowed areas, or what have you.  That is a genetic behavior, but not trained into it's parent and passed on.  It's a behavior that breeding selectively for that characteristic then becomes assumed into a family or bloodline or breed, becoming more common then in later generations that the breeder can select for.  Selective breeding practices have just as frequently bred out behaviors that were undesireable or of no consequence to the goals of the breeder, like we have seen with 'working abilities' among the show lines.

simply said , training cannot change or direct genetics , drives , caracter etc are genetic and influence trainability , we see dogs that are lousy trackers produce lousy trackers , is that because of training , no , because of genetics , yes ,

what is more important , rougly said , I would say you need 60 % dog and 40%trainer , if your aiming at sportpoints , if your dog is any less you cant make up for it no matter how great the training

Lol! So every kid can become an NBA center?

Chaz......if they grow up to be 7 foot 6 they can........Didn't you know that?

OK this perspective is from a trainer not a breeder. Take my opinion with a grain of salt. i think there is one thing everyone is forgetting.  Very few dogs actually title.  ( I am including every title there is Sch, herding, Akc, Ckc etc).  When you look at the numbers of GSD born every year the percentage is very small.  Genetics does play a huge part in trainability.  Some lines are exceptionally easy to train.  Some are trainable but difficult.  Some are hard to train to do anything at all.  When persons new to the breed come on a forum such as this they read the posts and assume that their dog will easy get a Schutzhund title. So many variables.  What were the parents bred to do?  How many offspring titled?  were they top scores or did they scrape by the seat of their pants?  Not all top dogs can produce either.  And sad to say some of the easiest dogs to train will never be in the gene pool as they are not papered. So many variables.  Poor training can trash an exceptional dog and exceptional training can title a poor or average dog.  Clear as mud right :)

For me, I have a "feel" for most of the commentors and understand their meaning. But at times I don't know them enough to "understand" if they're joking/serious all the time. For the atlete comments............ I have seen "center" type individuals that couldn't hold a basketball, couldn't dribble and sure in the hell didn't have the "touch". I'm 5"9" played sports all my life and played numerous sports for the military and traveled around the world playing. I would spend hours across the street at the base gym shooting free throws, running full court, shooting baskets by myself. Grew up in Michigan, played with all the brothers and in the Gus Macker Tourneys. I had to practice harder, longer to be better than most. A lot has to do with heart, hunger and want! The irony with practicing all those hours at the free throw line......... no need to go inside so much and take a chance on getting hurt sometimes because they had the 3 pointer.

I have to believe that some dogs think/feel the same way. As many of us have stated there are many variables involved, Many. We could probably name at least twenty. One I would think is BOND, and we have talked before on this subject. How much the dog wants to PLEASE his/her Master........ and the list goes on.

And Bryn, with what you stated. In my eyes for the amount of dogs that are famous and known for the "positives" in our breed. I would think that same amount are the "unknown/unproven" that for whatever reason(s) arent right there with the first group.