Opinion on Hip X-Ray - Page 3

To me it boils down to two questions.
1. Would I breed this dog? NO.
2. Will this dog have problems to work through life ? NO
 End of story. Rest is waste of time.
 Prager Hans

This is from OFA. I asked because there are several breeders doing x-rays w/o sedation and I remember one vet told me that w/o sedation can make loose hips look better but they shouldn't have passed. Yes this is just OFA but this is where these people sent their films and I remembered what that vet said so I asked.

My questions and then the answer from OFA:


 
hello,
 
would someone please clarify:
 
1. if you receive films for hip certification and the form is marked that no sedation was used, are those hips graded "harder"? quote from some other breeders.
 
2. is it true that a dog that is not sedated could pass which really may have more subluxation that would have shown up if a sedative was used?
________________________________

No the consulting radiologists are not aware whether the dog was restrained by physical or chemical restraint. 
 
Yes
 
Thank you for your inquiry.
 
G.G. Keller, D.V.M., MS
Diplomate ACVR
Chief of Veterinary Services
Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

thats a bunch of crap, they are either good or bad, i have always done my without sedation and had very good results. i just think it make the vet get a better pic if they are under.

It is a known fact that hips done without sedation can and will be "tighter" - an awake/aware dog will of course resist the positioning, making everything look tighter, better seated, and effectively hiding laxity.  No it won't hide boney formation problems, but as the director of OFA  just confirmed, it can definately make a difference.  I always have my dogs sedated for x-rays - I want to know what they really look like, good or bad, for working or breeding - I don't want to hide anything.  Honest breeders will rate their dogs sedated only, and recommend their puppies be sedated for rating.

molly

That is completely preposterous. LOL

Molly says: Honest breeders rate their dogs sedated only.

WTF??? Yeah, because to get a TRUE read on a dog, it's best to render them unconscious and have some hack of a vet tech yank their hips out of their sockets. 

I think I've heard it all now. 

The likelihood of muscle and ligament injury to the dog is essentially less when sedation is used, because more force has to be applied if an awake dog can actively oppose the necessary inward rotation of the limbs. On the other hand, if the dog is sedated, many vet offices are able to use small sandbags to support and keep the dog in position for radiographs. This will limit the personnel’s exposure to x-rays over time (as you can step out to the room while the film is taken) and is IMO the most important reason why dogs should be sedated for hip radiographs, except if medically contraindicated.
 
Dunno, but I think we should also take the health and safety of the people that work for us and our dogs into consideration when pursuing x-rays. JMHO
Daniela

In either case (sedated or awake), the safety of the dog largely depends on the skill of the team.

Digital xrays emit way less radiation than old school "hard copies" and no, I don't worry about the safety of the employees I go to when I pay for a service. My DOG is my concern; they are responsible for taking their own precautions for the job that they signed up for, as I do in mine and we all do. Anesthesia is dangerous- I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise. Risk vs. benefits, and if you can do something without it, why not?

My vet for xrays is a former pro football linebacker (seriously) and he is able to handle all my dogs just fine, even my largest oldest male, and he's skilled enough in his handling that they don't get to fighting too hard and thus reducing risk of injury. Now, in really tough dogs, like my oldest male, the legs are not pulled down as perfectly as they would be if he was unconscious, and the knees might not be rotated in just perfectly because he's quite strong, but we get good results and my dogs' health is the top priority. The vet acknowledges that in very strong dogs, particularly those who don't appreciate being held on their backs by a large man, positioning may suffer a tiny bit in favor of being easy on their joints and not getting into a yanking match with the dog. However, I haven't seen that, to be honest. His positioning is far better w/awake dogs than most vets can get w/a sedated one...as I said, SKILL is the big determiner, so in that sense, I'd rather stack the deck in my dogs' favor. 

Jenni, give it a rest.  I certainly didn't say anything about techs or vets harming a dog because it is sedated.  Dogs are far more likely to be harmed physically and emotionally by being awake while being yanked into a completely unnatural position and held down by strangers on it's back while people are trying to get the right position for x-rays.  Dont'cha think?

Regardless my point was not the action of positioning - it is the result.  Sedated dogs can be positioned better for a more "true" reading of the actual structure of the dog.  Honest breeders will want their dogs sedated for x-rays so they can know the true structure of the joints - good or bad.  People (breeders, stud dog owners, or owners in general) who brag about the excellent hips on dogs that were not sedated, well let's just say it's sort of like cheating (it's a fact that the joints of an unsedated dog will look tighter/have less laxity evident, and the ofa board is not aware of the dogs' method of restraint while rating the x-rays) - highly suspicious of the intent of that breeder/owner.

molly

Some dogs need to be sedated they fight too hard some are quiet. It depends on the dog and who is manipulating the dog for the xray. I have done both. Usually tighter hips no sedation better positioning with sedation same result in the end but I am always in with the dog when xrays are taken always and do have input in the final films or images. I do belive that the SV gives a better reading with poorer positioning as they use a method not a opinion.

Molly, LMAO. 

"Honest breeders" just cracks me up every time you type it. 

I shudder to think of dogs being bred who are "emotionally harmed" by having xrays taken.   YIKES.

There you have it folks...the reason why GSDs are in the state they're in. 

Nothing further, Your Honor.