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by clc29 on 09 January 2014 - 11:01
Bhall....That guy sounds like an idiot!
I train with a very well known police dog trainer and handler at my club. He brings a lot of the patrol prospects he imports out to the club to work and he teaches some of his K9 handler courses on the club grounds. Since I've been there, I can't recall a single dog start his program under 18 months. I've never seen him do that to any of the dogs he tests and his own patrol dog was a ScH3 (now retired).
Melissa....My mom used to work for one of the county Sheriff departments in NC. She told me about a couple of K9 incidents and how some of the handlers treated their dogs....made me think that office shouldn't have a K9 dept.
I train with a very well known police dog trainer and handler at my club. He brings a lot of the patrol prospects he imports out to the club to work and he teaches some of his K9 handler courses on the club grounds. Since I've been there, I can't recall a single dog start his program under 18 months. I've never seen him do that to any of the dogs he tests and his own patrol dog was a ScH3 (now retired).
Melissa....My mom used to work for one of the county Sheriff departments in NC. She told me about a couple of K9 incidents and how some of the handlers treated their dogs....made me think that office shouldn't have a K9 dept.
by Slamdunc on 09 January 2014 - 12:01
BHall,
I really don't know where to start but do you consider a dogs age when testing it for patrol?
I absolutely do take age into account when testing dogs, I also take breed into account. I have tested 100's of dogs for potential Police K-9's and have a system or standard method for testing. When I evaluate dogs, I rate and test the dogs in several categories then make a decision on the overall dog, taking breed and age into consideration. I can also tell quickly the "IPO" started dogs vs the "KNPV" started dogs very quickly, and the somewhat green dogs from the dogs that have more foundation work and training. I do not do the "stake out" test as some PD's do, and certainly not in that fashion. For me that test has limited value. With out going into too much detail, I test first for socialness (sp, gun sureness (while NOT in drive), hunt, prey, fight, aggression, defense drives, and how civil the dog is. If the dog makes it that far I will test for environmental sureness. IME, we are seeing younger and younger dogs being offered for sale for a variety of reasons. While 7 or 8 years ago it was uncommon to see 10 or 12 month dogs offered for sale to Police Depts, today it has become the norm. Rarely, do I see 18 month or 24 month old dogs offered by vendors. Since, I have some experience raising and training dogs from pups and titling or converting them to a working Patrol dog I can appreciate the development of a young dog and what is to be expected at 8, 10, 12 and 18 months. Some PD's have not seen or worked with young dogs enough to realize the difference and see the potential in a young dog. A 10 month old dog with the right attributes can make an excellent Police K-9, but the testing and training must take into account the dog's age. Even with sport folks, a good young dog can easily be ruined by too much pressure and inappropriate training or expectations for it's age.
A 10 month old dog that stood and wagged it's tail in that situation would be ok with me. Some dogs may not realize the threat, some dogs are extremely confident and don't see a threat at that age or are simply not threatened. A dog that went into full blown aggression would not be ideal either if it reacted out of fear. When I challenge a dog it starts subtly and increases to judge the thresholds, not just to startle a dog and view the reaction.
Some smaller PD's or those with limited experience and training expect to see a "full blown" working dog right out of the box. Unfortunately, it doesn't always happen like that; actually less and less with the increased demand for dogs worldwide in the past few years.
Birgit, I am happy to discuss this with you by PM or email. FWIW, I agree with you.
Jim
I really don't know where to start but do you consider a dogs age when testing it for patrol?
I absolutely do take age into account when testing dogs, I also take breed into account. I have tested 100's of dogs for potential Police K-9's and have a system or standard method for testing. When I evaluate dogs, I rate and test the dogs in several categories then make a decision on the overall dog, taking breed and age into consideration. I can also tell quickly the "IPO" started dogs vs the "KNPV" started dogs very quickly, and the somewhat green dogs from the dogs that have more foundation work and training. I do not do the "stake out" test as some PD's do, and certainly not in that fashion. For me that test has limited value. With out going into too much detail, I test first for socialness (sp, gun sureness (while NOT in drive), hunt, prey, fight, aggression, defense drives, and how civil the dog is. If the dog makes it that far I will test for environmental sureness. IME, we are seeing younger and younger dogs being offered for sale for a variety of reasons. While 7 or 8 years ago it was uncommon to see 10 or 12 month dogs offered for sale to Police Depts, today it has become the norm. Rarely, do I see 18 month or 24 month old dogs offered by vendors. Since, I have some experience raising and training dogs from pups and titling or converting them to a working Patrol dog I can appreciate the development of a young dog and what is to be expected at 8, 10, 12 and 18 months. Some PD's have not seen or worked with young dogs enough to realize the difference and see the potential in a young dog. A 10 month old dog with the right attributes can make an excellent Police K-9, but the testing and training must take into account the dog's age. Even with sport folks, a good young dog can easily be ruined by too much pressure and inappropriate training or expectations for it's age.
A 10 month old dog that stood and wagged it's tail in that situation would be ok with me. Some dogs may not realize the threat, some dogs are extremely confident and don't see a threat at that age or are simply not threatened. A dog that went into full blown aggression would not be ideal either if it reacted out of fear. When I challenge a dog it starts subtly and increases to judge the thresholds, not just to startle a dog and view the reaction.
Some smaller PD's or those with limited experience and training expect to see a "full blown" working dog right out of the box. Unfortunately, it doesn't always happen like that; actually less and less with the increased demand for dogs worldwide in the past few years.
Birgit, I am happy to discuss this with you by PM or email. FWIW, I agree with you.
Jim
by Q Man on 09 January 2014 - 12:01
Have seen many Police Depts and how they train and choose dogs...Very few know how to train and choose dogs...There are some... ... ...Whenever I show dogs to depts and they want to test them...I ask exactly what do they want to do and how are they going to do it...
By doing what they do can cause a problem for a young dog...They can be affected and can shape them if the dogs are young enough and not mature enough to handle what's being done to them...Most depts don't care about your dogs...I mean if something happens to them...they just won't buy them...
They were wanting to shoot very close to the dogs...I had a problem with that and wouldn't allow it...I told them they were welcome to fire off a few rounds but they should do it at a fairly good distance...They would still achieve what they needed to see without hurting the young dogs...They were wanting to shooting so close to not only the young dogs but to me and the others around that we would have needed ear protection...
This is why I want to know exactly what they want to do and how they're going to do it...You can tell an awful lot about a dept and their reps by how they want to test dogs...
By doing what they do can cause a problem for a young dog...They can be affected and can shape them if the dogs are young enough and not mature enough to handle what's being done to them...Most depts don't care about your dogs...I mean if something happens to them...they just won't buy them...
They were wanting to shoot very close to the dogs...I had a problem with that and wouldn't allow it...I told them they were welcome to fire off a few rounds but they should do it at a fairly good distance...They would still achieve what they needed to see without hurting the young dogs...They were wanting to shooting so close to not only the young dogs but to me and the others around that we would have needed ear protection...
This is why I want to know exactly what they want to do and how they're going to do it...You can tell an awful lot about a dept and their reps by how they want to test dogs...
by AUBS47 on 09 January 2014 - 13:01
The thing with alot of department handlers the dog is treated like an object not a true partner. Just this yr i have had contact with 3 new handlers because the old handlers were tired of doing it. Alot dont listen and expect the dog to be machine. But can say there are good handlers that listen and learn and end up doing just fine. I just think its shizzy how a dog spends a couple yrs with someone and then is a pushed and traded off for less work. Or the dogs end being screwed up because they take them back to there department and its oh no thats not how i would do it do it like this then the dog is confused. A little off topic but wanted to share
by PA K9 on 09 January 2014 - 19:01
by PA K9 on 09 January 2014 - 19:01
I am completely blown away by this guy's moronic "color by numbers approach"--and that is putting it nicely. And he has the nerve to tell YOU that you don't know what you're talking about? Unbelievable. He did this to a 10 month old dog? WTF! I would even go so far to say that many 2 year old dogs should not be pressured in certain ways and it is advisable to wait until they are 3--especially in Czech lines. Again, depending on exactly how you are pressuring the dog and the individual dog. But no, it's a give-me-everything-NOW world. God forbid we should actually have to wait for a dog to develop
HiredDog, Gustav, Melba, clc29, Slamdunc, Q Man, AUBS47, good posts. Birgit, you show true class and restraint by not strangling this guy on the spot.
by AUBS47 on 09 January 2014 - 20:01
Bhall, i would of shoved my foot up his butt, this guy needs to stick to the scream parks not attempting to work dogs. I love the guys that are power happy and power trip on dogs... it must be in the water.lol its sad.
by Gustav on 10 January 2014 - 10:01
Slamdunc, your post reflects my experience, I procure and test dogs also in my region.....the last three Mals at one of my consulting PD departments were all under 13 months of age when acquired( actually they came from your neck of the woods, VA.), and all three have finished 16 week patrol and 12 week scent school and are on the streets. Not all dogs are ready at this young age, and I very seldom see a GS ready.....but Mals.....yes this is not uncommon at all.
by kyto on 10 January 2014 - 11:01
everything depends on the price they pay for a dog, if they pay the amounts israelli armed forces pay i have no problem that they really search for the top quallity dogs, if they want cheap dogs than tests can't be to hard you only get what you pay for
the age of a dog isn't so important as this is a only a 1time exposure to evaluate how they react or if they can recover from a sudden unexpected threat
the age of a dog isn't so important as this is a only a 1time exposure to evaluate how they react or if they can recover from a sudden unexpected threat
by Slamdunc on 10 January 2014 - 11:01
Hey Cliff,
I'm sure you are seeing younger dogs as well, we have to choose from what is available. I have seen so many younger dogs that I am now leery of dogs over 20 months. One of the best dogs that I ever tested and selected was a 10 month old Malinois. Lately, when I see a dog over 24 months I wonder why it didn't sell earlier? As much as I love IPO, I'm not a big fan of IPO dogs sold as Police K-9's. I do not see a lot of titled dogs, either KNPV or IPO. But, I do see dogs with a lot of foundation work. The IPO foundation work, IMHO is not a plus when I test dogs. While some of the dogs can make excellent Police dogs, there is a lot of retraining needed. I can attest to this from my own dog. I will be raising and training a new pup this year to replace my current dog. I can assure you that this puppy will not see a sleeve or grass to track on for the first 12 months of his life. He will be all leg bites, hard surface tracking and imprinted on narcotics starting at 8 weeks.
There are several vendors in my area, one that was located in my city. I hope the dogs didn't come from the one that was in my city. I haven't dealt with them in about 3 or 4 years. If you want PM me and I will fill you in on the details regarding that vendor. In the next year or sooner we will probably be replacing 4 dogs, I will be headed to BHall's place to test dogs and a couple of others.
I'm sure you are seeing younger dogs as well, we have to choose from what is available. I have seen so many younger dogs that I am now leery of dogs over 20 months. One of the best dogs that I ever tested and selected was a 10 month old Malinois. Lately, when I see a dog over 24 months I wonder why it didn't sell earlier? As much as I love IPO, I'm not a big fan of IPO dogs sold as Police K-9's. I do not see a lot of titled dogs, either KNPV or IPO. But, I do see dogs with a lot of foundation work. The IPO foundation work, IMHO is not a plus when I test dogs. While some of the dogs can make excellent Police dogs, there is a lot of retraining needed. I can attest to this from my own dog. I will be raising and training a new pup this year to replace my current dog. I can assure you that this puppy will not see a sleeve or grass to track on for the first 12 months of his life. He will be all leg bites, hard surface tracking and imprinted on narcotics starting at 8 weeks.
There are several vendors in my area, one that was located in my city. I hope the dogs didn't come from the one that was in my city. I haven't dealt with them in about 3 or 4 years. If you want PM me and I will fill you in on the details regarding that vendor. In the next year or sooner we will probably be replacing 4 dogs, I will be headed to BHall's place to test dogs and a couple of others.
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