More Elbows- Younger Male - Page 2

Ha. Here I am peering at the x-rays, zooming in, scratching my head....OCD? UAP?? Good practice though

What does diet have to do with Lyme disease? 

He's always been fed all raw. I bred him. 

OH OK Jen, was more curious with the pano...  What has the outcome of the lyme disease been?  Any more symptoms other than the limping?  Just curious..

Hah! I was about to say the same thing, though it looked like the right radius had some damage to it about midway along the shaft.

The Lyme was a nightmare. He was very very sick. She got his bloodwork actually totally negative after going to all alternative treatments for it. He's doing very well now. He is over 2yrs old now. 

Pano, according to some research, seems to occur alongside distemper vaccines. This dog did have a bit of a poor reaction to his MLV shots for parvo and distemper. I would blame that for the pano if anything is to blame. Pano has not been something I've had issue with in my limited breedings, even the Caleb pups and he had horrible pano. I raised them on all raw from their first meal until they left and most of those owners continued that. The rest are fed a kibble/raw combo. Huge males- too big- and no pano, though more than one was over 100lbs at under a year. I do think pano has to do with inflammation elsewhere in the body. I don't believe most of those pups were vaccinated conventionally, either. I know several were not vaccinated at all until rabies. I think it's a combination of genetics and environmental triggers and diet may help or exacerbate, but I can't really reconcile with blaming it totally. 

Jenni, Was Caleb raised on raw? I'm asking because my 5 month old pup has a mild case of pano. I am struggling as to what to feed her. She was getting grain free Wellness Core (36% protein) and raw. My vet said I needed to switch her to a lower protein diet and one with low calcium, along with a balanced calcium and phosphorus ratio. I've switched her to Earthborn Meadowfeast. It has 26% protein and meets the other requirements. I feed my other dog raw, but my vet, who is a big fan of raw, warned me not to give all raw to my puppy because it could cause growth issues. I've been researching online for days and am so confused with so much conflicting info and advice. I just want to do what is best for my puppy, but dont know what that is.

I am with you Starrchar that is why I asked Jenni the question about pano and what he was fed.  Was hoping feeding raw would eliminate my chances of pano with my puppy also;  guess not, but do know the calcium/phos ratio needs to be in balance.  I was not aware that the vaccine was a contributor of pano also;  JHC.  Where to go from here;  I am going to follow Jean Dodds vaccine protocal in which that last vaccine at 16/17 weeks is optional;  my puppy won't get anything until almost 6 months and that will be rabies (no other vaccine at that time).  Then possibly at 1 year a (3) year booster.  We will see. 

Back to raw, I still feel they are better off with raw which I have changed to a blend that is balanced with vit's/minerals/calcium/phos.  I use a small amount of kibble to train with as it is easier to handle and dry.  So far I am liking the results I see with weight, coat and of course ([poop) as well as energy;  seems like my boy has more stamina also.  That tells me hopefully something is right and as balanced as I can get it for him.  So take a look at your puppies condition, weight, coat, energy (poops) and hopefully that will tell you more of what you want to know.  And I have been told to check very regularly all of those fine points and fine tune the puppies program if something seems not up to par.  Hope this helps you somewhat.  Good luck  Nan

@ Jenni:  Thank you for sharing all of the x-rays you have posted.  Really helpful for learning more about the elbows.  Nan

Are you positive your pup doesn't have HOD and not pano? Pano is rare that young and rarer in females. I would be concerned feeding Core that HOD or even OCD could be causing the limp. Have full front limbs, including shoulders, been xrayed?

I would definitely not feed Core to a puppy. Meadow Feast is better. Wellness LBP is a good choice, too, or even Innova LBP if she already has pano. Calcium is the main thing I worry about, not so much pano/protein issues. My concerns are related to more serious skeletal abnormalities, like HD and ED, and recent research has shown high calcium levels by themselves can cause ED.  I did not have total control over what Caleb ate for a time when he was young (he was technically my ex's dog, LOL) and he was not raised on raw from a very early age. He usually ate some kind of kibble along with his raw for most of his life because he was so large and had such a high metabolism; a 6lb chicken per day was not enough to keep his hip bones hidden. He had pano very late, though, 28 months. He was eating Orijen at the time. (Interestingly, the only other pup I had growth problems with, bilateral ED in a DDR female I'd bought, was also eating Orijen). Who'd have thought a 28 mo. old GSD was a candidate for pano? I think he ate Innova LBP before that but you're taxing my memory. That was 10 years ago. I believe I took him off the Orijen and kept him on all raw and it went away. Again, you're taxing my memory. It wasn't a big deal so it's not something that sticks out in my mind. I remember the diagnosis well, but not the amelioration. 

I'm not sure why a vet would be anti-raw for puppies. Raw minerals are more easily absorbed than the synthetics in kibble. I would have to estimate that half the pups I've bred (so maybe 15 or so?) have been raised on 100% raw and have not had pano, and maybe 1/3 of them are Caleb pups. He had a heck of a raging case of pano, too. He didn't complain; it showed up in an xray after he was diagnosed w/a torn ACL. They could not believe he was that tough and had been asymptomatic. His entire femur was inflamed. Anyway...xrays on those raw fed pups have been wonderful as well. The first batch is over 4 years old now and the baby batch is a year old and knock on wood, all is well. Not every single pup has been xrayed yet, but the ones that have have really been nice, so I cannot say that I agree in any way that all raw is going to cause any kind of growth problem. On the contrary, I think the lack of synthetic vitamins and minerals is far superior to kibble because their bodies are not as good at ridding themselves of excess calcium as an adult dog's, and there is theory (not proven) that the synthetics "fool" their bodies into assimilating more than they should and storing it instead of passing it through as excess. In fact, TOTW, issued a statement that their food is inappropriate for LBPs due to excess calcium. 

If she were my puppy and I was concerned with joint formation, I would feed all raw. I would also give her MSM for the inflammation and salmon oil and vitamin e. 

This is something I found that has a couple good links in it as well as some pano experience w/different diets. Just a dialog, take it w/a grain of salt, but it discusses Core specifically. http://community.dog.com/nutrition_exercise/eating_right/f/29492/p/70096/545263.aspx#545263  Also links to Great Dane Lady info which is good for diet questions. 

I am a GSD guy but also an orthopaedic surgeon. the elbows are normal but the lesion in the right radius is s stress fracture NOT pano. There is  a cortical defect with a line and periosteal response. This is stress fracture appearance and not typical pano. Pano produces periosteal elevation and not the cortical defect.
 

Nans, Chaos (these are his x-rays) was vaxed for distemper twice, I have to look at his records, but I think it was at 10 weeks and then again a booster at 14 or 15. If I could go back in time, I would have done titers 10 days after the first shot to confirm seroconversion. As it was, I did the titers after his first booster, stupid, stupid me. I wish I had listen to Jenni, I did come across an article on pubMed that linked distemper with pano, but by then it was too late. I guess what I am saying is that even dr. Dodds protocol is not conservative enough, because if I recall correctly, she recommends 3 distemper shots?

He was always raw fed and I even went to the trouble of getting a diet formulated for him, to make sure that the Ca/ph ratio is in check and so on, but overall it was 80 % meat/ 10% bone and 10% organ. He had pano from March to August, and it was bad. He was diagnosed with Lyme in October 2012, was on doxy for 2 weeks ( one week on, one week off and then a week on) and had a reaction to the doxy, with very elevated liver enzymes. I modified the Buhner protocol for him and he was on it for 2 full months, with 1 month just building to the correct doses of the herbs. His C6 was 134 last October, this April he tested negative, I couldn't believe it, so tested him again in May ( negative) and again two weeks ago ( still negative).