Rubbing their nose in it .......!!!! - Page 2

YR  over on the Training thread,  Jeffs maintains that the method works. Reckons if you show 'em the pee or poop (apparently "they know" even if its half an hour later, 'cos "they're not stupid") and allow them to SNIFF it (not actually rub their noses in it), they will be able to make the association between the pool/pile and the fact that it smells of them
(assuming human has the right guilty party of course) and presumably remember their recent activity in producing it.
Well, I learn something every day.  I think your picture is a wonderful illustration of Jeffs theory. HM

post deleted ?
perfect.

I don't see why ptople find it outraging that people do this.  Yes it is wrong but not all dog owners are on dog messageboards and around owners that know better.

It is a issue of educating people about the proper ways to train a dog that's all.  Hell I thought you was supposed to stick their nose in it and tell them "No!".  There are tons of other things regular people do in dog training that others with more knowledge know isn't a good thing to do.  Instead of calling them idiots or having no common sense, perhaps it is easier to take the time out and educate them.  We all had to start somewhere.

Hell I come across many people who feed Science Diet to their dogs and think it is really good dog food.  I take the time to show them why it isn't and show them better alternatives and why.  In todays world their are more pet owners who "don't know" than pet owners that "do know" when it comes to animals and how to raise, train and live with them.

Combining a thread that were deleted because it was a like thread in training.

Rubbing their nose in it .......!!!! by Hundmutter on 02 May 2012 - 19:05	Hundmutter Posts: 45 Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 08:43 pm
I guess the thing to say to puppy purchasers is to stress how dangerous this practice is (rather than majoring on how unpleasant & cruel & self-defeating) because they won't want to be rapidly spending extra on vets' fees too quickly if the little one gets an infection, will they ?

Rubbing their nose in it .......!!!! by Jeffs on 04 May 2012 - 15:05	Jeffs Posts: 21 Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 09:24 pm
Putting their nose in it is gross, but it's not cruel.  Most dogs regularly will sniff poo. The proper technique is to show the dog the poo and correct it.  But only if you are also giving it lots and lots of praise for going poo where you want it to go.  You can correct it only if you've shown them the desired behavior. Different dogs need different training methods.  One of my dogs has never ever gone to the bathroom in the house and I never needed to show and correct.  My other dog required a different approach.  Both are the same age, same breed, gotten at the same time.

Rubbing their nose in it .......!!!! by Mindhunt on 05 May 2012 - 20:05	Mindhunt Posts: 869 Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:50 am
If you are going to correct your dog for going in the house, it needs to be done AS THE DOG IS GOING not take the dog to the pile and then correct, dog doesn't make the connection, just reads your body language and responds to that.  If your dog had an accident in the house, just calmly clean it up.  There is nothing you can do after the fact.  When your dog goes outside, praise immediately and calmly.  Never got the concept of rubbing their noses in it, like Jeffs said, they sniff and sometimes eat their own poop and unlike people, they don't make that leap to the connection between their poop and "Bad Dog".

Rubbing their nose in it .......!!!! by Hundmutter on 06 May 2012 - 05:05	Hundmutter Posts: 45 Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 08:43 pm
Indeed, Mindhunt - which is why Jeff's carefully explained method does not usually work anyway.  Unfortunately the common public conception of "rubbing their nose in it" always seems to be the rather more literal version - hence my concern about bugs getting in eyes and up nostrils. But I still had to laugh at the CAT  story on the parallel thread !  Linda.

Rubbing their nose in it .......!!!! by Jeffs on 07 May 2012 - 13:05	Jeffs Posts: 21 Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2011 09:24 pm
You don't have to catch them in the act for it to work.  They know.  There not stupid.  The argument against showing it them and correcting it is that by itself, it can result in the dog eating it's poo.  But that's because the dog isn't being rewarded for the going to the bathroom in the desired place.  They are being corrected without knowing the desired behavior. Correcting them only when you catch them in the act teaches them to hide it.  They think, "when I go where they can see me, I get corrected.  But if I go where they can't see me, I don't get corrected.  So that must mean it's OK if I go to the bathroom where they can't see me." I have 2 dogs.  One figured it out using positive only.  The other one didn't.  The other one was a little on the prissy side and didn't want to go outside when it was wet or raining outside.  So we had to up the ante.  You don't have to use it, but it works perfectly fine if you do it correctly.

Rubbing their nose in it .......!!!! by Mindhunt on 08 May 2012 - 04:05	Mindhunt Posts: 869 Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:50 am
Jeffs, they do not make the connection between a pile of poo that they did hours ago and your correction after you show it to them. Their mind does not work that way, they register your body language, and know they did something to displease you but not what it is, they don't read minds.  They are not furry people who can understand concepts like we do.  Catching them in the act is a firm "NO".  Then take them outside calmly where they may or may not finish.  Take them out again later and again until they do go outside when you calmly praise them.  Praise immediately following the desired behavior is always best. Not saying you do this.....but I hate that "he know what he did wrong" or "she knows why I am angry".  I heard my favorite the other day "he knew he was a bad dog because as soon as I walked in the door, he ran to his crate".  After some digging I found out last time the owner came home, he dragged his dog to the pile, corrected him then let him go to his crate.  The next time the owner came home, his dog reacted to his body language as soon as his owner smelled the poop, ran to his crate knowing he displeased his owner, but not what he did to displease him.  Dogs are masters at reading our body language, something as subtle as a few millimeters of movement of the corner of our mouth can speak volumes to them.

Rubbing their nose in it .......!!!! by Two Moons on 08 May 2012 - 05:05	Two Moons Posts: 8719 Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 07:21 pm
Typical Vixen, Rubbing the pups nose in it is wrong simply because it makes a mess, and is not proper hygiene. On the other hand one must correct the pup and showing the reason for the correction is just as important as showing the pup the correct alternative behavior which is to go where you want it to go. My preference is outside, I do not waste time and energy on paper. Cruel no, stupid yes. One good point, train the people first. Moons.

Rubbing their nose in it .......!!!! by Hundmutter on 08 May 2012 - 06:05	Hundmutter Posts: 45 Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 08:43 pm
For some good alternative house-training methods, look over on the All Breeds thread ...

I guess if we can teach our dog to cook his own meals, we can teach him to go to the bathroom and use the comode..


Cats have been known to be taught to do that so maybe we can start a new METHOD OF POTTING  for 2012..

Ya think?

Yr

YR  Brilliant !

One thing I added that seems to have dropped off when Admin did the join, was that I pointed out to Jeffs that the problem with not-very-dog-savvy people reading that it was OK to "rub their noses in it" - without seeing/ "getting" all the detail of what Jeffs was saying about reinforcing and rewarding correct toileting behaviour AS WELL -   is that they then go and do exactly that, they really do shove the poor pups nose into its mess.  The OP originally was asking for ways to express to puppy buyers that they should not do this, not looking for ways to justify the practice ...