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by hexe on 01 January 2012 - 21:01
"If you, as a person, fall into a frozen lake what happens to your muscles? They cramp. This is the same as a dog's stomach."
A very sad, very touching story...and not only entirely anecdotal, it also does not stand up to scrutiny, physiologically. IF the ingestion of ice water caused cramping of the stomach, that wouldn't cause the dog to then swallow air--it would cause the dog to retch, and empty the contents of its stomach. In order for a dog to bloat, there has to be the introduction of AIR into the stomach, and that air then must become trapped there, instead of being released via eructation or flatulation (burping or farting).
The bloating incident portrayed in "Marley and Me" involved a dog that had been playing in the snow and catching snowballs--and it is not uncommon for dogs that catch snowballs will bite down on them and swallow the snow, along with some amount of air; likewise, dogs that play in the snow by biting at it as they run around also swallow air in the process. Likewise, dogs that like to bite at the water while they're swimming swallow some of that water, but they swallow a lot more air--should we then consider that swimming causes bloat? Or perhaps it's just water in any form, of any type, in any location which is responsible for bloat?
No, bloat is caused when a SUSCEPTIBLE dog--remember that part, because it's important--has air introduced into its stomach by swallowing it, and then through some failure on the part of normal body functions that air is not released through the usual channels. There are a million theories as to why this happens--my personal suspicion is that there is a neurologic disconnect of some kind behind the failure of the esophageal and pyloric sphincters--but there is only one proven point: some dogs are NOT predisposed to bloat, and no matter what they eat or drink, or how, or where or when they do, and no matter how much air the swallow, they simply never experience the emergency condition known as bloating. Unfortunately, we still don't have any way to identify which dogs are at risk and which ones aren't.
Don't believe me that the ice water/ice and bloat story is just an Internet urban myth? Check for yourself: http://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2010/july/internet_myths
(Please pay special attention to response #27--it is entirely applicable to the "Internet warning" phenomenon.)
You might also want to do a web search on the topic...you'll find that the ONLY report of there being such a link always, ALWAYS goes back to the SAME, single anecdotal story. Need more? Do a search for the veterinarian who purportedly told Baran's owner that she'd caused the dog to bloat with the ice water--the name has been stripped from many retellings, but it remains present in many of them; you will be unable to find a SINGLE instance of a veterinarian named Dr. Vogf (and that is the consistent spelling that appears in all versions where a name is mentioned) OTHER THAN IN THE ANECDOTAL STORY ITSELF. One would think that a vet who had relayed such important information to a client would show up SOMEWHERE else on the Internet, on some state veterinary medical board's membership list or as a speaker at some conference, SOMEWHERE...
dogshome9, it is extremely unlikely that you did anything to cause Jola to bloat today; it has been my experience that dogs which never once in their lives showed any indication of even *starting* to bloat suddenly develop a susceptibility once they enter their senior years (one of the reasons I suspect a link to a neurologic component to the process). Perhaps the dogs have developed internal masses which affect the neuro pathways that control the gut, or perhaps such masses interfere with the gut function on a purely mechanical basis as room in the abdomen is reduced by their presence; there is still much research to be done, and still more questions than answers as to why dogs bloat. You gave her a good life, for her to have enjoyed almost 11 years in health and happiness, and in as excellent condition as she appears to be in her photograph in your post. Please do not spend even one more second believing you may have been the cause of what befell her today; it is not true, and you proved the depth of your affection and quality of care you gave her when you put your own pain aside and unselfishly released her from enduring any additional pain. You kept your promise to her: to do everything in your power to keep her safe, happy, healthy and free from pain, fear, hunger or harm...even when doing so meant tearing a hole in your heart as you let her go. Blessings on you.
A very sad, very touching story...and not only entirely anecdotal, it also does not stand up to scrutiny, physiologically. IF the ingestion of ice water caused cramping of the stomach, that wouldn't cause the dog to then swallow air--it would cause the dog to retch, and empty the contents of its stomach. In order for a dog to bloat, there has to be the introduction of AIR into the stomach, and that air then must become trapped there, instead of being released via eructation or flatulation (burping or farting).
The bloating incident portrayed in "Marley and Me" involved a dog that had been playing in the snow and catching snowballs--and it is not uncommon for dogs that catch snowballs will bite down on them and swallow the snow, along with some amount of air; likewise, dogs that play in the snow by biting at it as they run around also swallow air in the process. Likewise, dogs that like to bite at the water while they're swimming swallow some of that water, but they swallow a lot more air--should we then consider that swimming causes bloat? Or perhaps it's just water in any form, of any type, in any location which is responsible for bloat?
No, bloat is caused when a SUSCEPTIBLE dog--remember that part, because it's important--has air introduced into its stomach by swallowing it, and then through some failure on the part of normal body functions that air is not released through the usual channels. There are a million theories as to why this happens--my personal suspicion is that there is a neurologic disconnect of some kind behind the failure of the esophageal and pyloric sphincters--but there is only one proven point: some dogs are NOT predisposed to bloat, and no matter what they eat or drink, or how, or where or when they do, and no matter how much air the swallow, they simply never experience the emergency condition known as bloating. Unfortunately, we still don't have any way to identify which dogs are at risk and which ones aren't.
Don't believe me that the ice water/ice and bloat story is just an Internet urban myth? Check for yourself: http://www.petmd.com/blogs/fullyvetted/2010/july/internet_myths
(Please pay special attention to response #27--it is entirely applicable to the "Internet warning" phenomenon.)
You might also want to do a web search on the topic...you'll find that the ONLY report of there being such a link always, ALWAYS goes back to the SAME, single anecdotal story. Need more? Do a search for the veterinarian who purportedly told Baran's owner that she'd caused the dog to bloat with the ice water--the name has been stripped from many retellings, but it remains present in many of them; you will be unable to find a SINGLE instance of a veterinarian named Dr. Vogf (and that is the consistent spelling that appears in all versions where a name is mentioned) OTHER THAN IN THE ANECDOTAL STORY ITSELF. One would think that a vet who had relayed such important information to a client would show up SOMEWHERE else on the Internet, on some state veterinary medical board's membership list or as a speaker at some conference, SOMEWHERE...
dogshome9, it is extremely unlikely that you did anything to cause Jola to bloat today; it has been my experience that dogs which never once in their lives showed any indication of even *starting* to bloat suddenly develop a susceptibility once they enter their senior years (one of the reasons I suspect a link to a neurologic component to the process). Perhaps the dogs have developed internal masses which affect the neuro pathways that control the gut, or perhaps such masses interfere with the gut function on a purely mechanical basis as room in the abdomen is reduced by their presence; there is still much research to be done, and still more questions than answers as to why dogs bloat. You gave her a good life, for her to have enjoyed almost 11 years in health and happiness, and in as excellent condition as she appears to be in her photograph in your post. Please do not spend even one more second believing you may have been the cause of what befell her today; it is not true, and you proved the depth of your affection and quality of care you gave her when you put your own pain aside and unselfishly released her from enduring any additional pain. You kept your promise to her: to do everything in your power to keep her safe, happy, healthy and free from pain, fear, hunger or harm...even when doing so meant tearing a hole in your heart as you let her go. Blessings on you.
by raylind on 01 January 2012 - 23:01
Well said.Imagine the unesasary guilt that incorrect information can cause.
by Sunsilver on 02 January 2012 - 07:01
Yikes! I apologize for repeating incorrect information! If I could delete that post, I certainly would!
Hexe, thank you very much for exposing the original source as being false information! It sounded so factual, and so plausible I never thought to question it!
I am SO SORRY!
Hexe, thank you very much for exposing the original source as being false information! It sounded so factual, and so plausible I never thought to question it!
I am SO SORRY!
by hexe on 02 January 2012 - 17:01
Sunsilver, no problem--as you say, it sounds so well-documented, especially the original version that give a name to the vet and makes reference to an actual, well-known show cluster and a specific veterinary facility, (though it's only referred to by initials...and there's no veterinary facility within a hundred mile radius of that show site that would have those initials); whoever embroidered this tale put a lot of effort into it, but with these myths that's actually typical. I just wish I had seen the original surfacing of the story, so we could have put it to rest here back then.
Perhaps the admins could edit the post with a notation that warns the claim was later found to be untrue, in case someone does an incomplete search and comes upon just the part of this thread that recounts the myth? It would be worth asking them...
by dogshome9 on 02 January 2012 - 23:01
I am back, sorry for not returning to let people understand just what happened on Sunday evening. Thank you to all of those who have posted hHexe as always you are a wealth of information. Sunsilver don't feel too bad even my vet said it was probably the ice!!
At around 2.30pm Jola ate a small piece of lamb flap (only a small section because of her age and possible constipation)
About an hour later she was with my now 7 month old puppy (her granddaughter ) and the puppy was licking an Ice block containing meat pieces and vegetables, this rather large block was split in half and Jola ran off and ate it. As the afternoon temp was around 32 degrees there was very little activity and both dogs lazed around the garden for a while then around 5.30pm my husband called me to check on Jola as she was eating soil, she appeared fine though she then had a small vomit so I kept an eye on her and followed her as she wandered around the garden and she had a couple of nonproductive vomits/gagging and then right in front of my eyes she blew up like a balloon. I screamed at my OH to get the car out and I rung my vet to meet me at the clinic, in all the time frame was no more than 25-30 mins. She was on the table anesthetized and the tube was in, I felt very lucky that she was tubed so easily and she did not appear to have twisted.
Post treatment and we were back home in less than an hour and 30mins but as l lifted her from the car and put her on the ground it all happened again, she took 2 steps and swelled bigger than before so I was back on the phone to my vet again for him to meet me at the clinic but I said this time I would let her go. There was no question of her having surgery, we would never have put her through that.
I could not believe just how fast this all happened, even though she was aged (but still not ancient) and had been suffering from a neurological problem for over 4 years, she has muscle wastage over her left eye and often had periods where she would drop the left ear, hold her head at an angle and look confused, stagger to the left and occasionally collapse, we had already been talking about the possibility of her having an episode and it leaving her with a debilitating problem or of having to make the dreaded decision for her and where we would place her body when the time came, sadly this came to happen without warning.
Jola with her granddaughter Arky 4 months ago.
.JPG)
Another taken just 2 weeks ago ---- she often had this sad face lately, I think she could
been trying to tell us something
At around 2.30pm Jola ate a small piece of lamb flap (only a small section because of her age and possible constipation)
About an hour later she was with my now 7 month old puppy (her granddaughter ) and the puppy was licking an Ice block containing meat pieces and vegetables, this rather large block was split in half and Jola ran off and ate it. As the afternoon temp was around 32 degrees there was very little activity and both dogs lazed around the garden for a while then around 5.30pm my husband called me to check on Jola as she was eating soil, she appeared fine though she then had a small vomit so I kept an eye on her and followed her as she wandered around the garden and she had a couple of nonproductive vomits/gagging and then right in front of my eyes she blew up like a balloon. I screamed at my OH to get the car out and I rung my vet to meet me at the clinic, in all the time frame was no more than 25-30 mins. She was on the table anesthetized and the tube was in, I felt very lucky that she was tubed so easily and she did not appear to have twisted.
Post treatment and we were back home in less than an hour and 30mins but as l lifted her from the car and put her on the ground it all happened again, she took 2 steps and swelled bigger than before so I was back on the phone to my vet again for him to meet me at the clinic but I said this time I would let her go. There was no question of her having surgery, we would never have put her through that.
I could not believe just how fast this all happened, even though she was aged (but still not ancient) and had been suffering from a neurological problem for over 4 years, she has muscle wastage over her left eye and often had periods where she would drop the left ear, hold her head at an angle and look confused, stagger to the left and occasionally collapse, we had already been talking about the possibility of her having an episode and it leaving her with a debilitating problem or of having to make the dreaded decision for her and where we would place her body when the time came, sadly this came to happen without warning.
Jola with her granddaughter Arky 4 months ago.
Another taken just 2 weeks ago ---- she often had this sad face lately, I think she could
been trying to tell us something
by momosgarage on 03 January 2012 - 22:01
May I ask why you didn't opt for surgery and stomach tacking? I see you mentioned she had other problems, if so, you made the right choice.
My ten year old female GSD bloated and I went to an emergency clinic that wanted to release the gas with a tube and send her home. I asked "Can you do the stomach tacking surgery"? The vet tech told me that the current on duty vet would not do that, so I went to a another nearby emergencey vet and he did the surgery with stomach tacking. Afterward I found out that the second emergency vet who did the surgery, bred poodles and had done the surgery numerous times over many decades for his own dogs. I then took her to my regular vet for recovery and he said he would have done the same surgery, if he were open at the the time of the bloating. Both of these vets were very old men, the vet that refused stomach tacking was much younger (probably mid to late 30's). My female recovered 100% in three months with very strict limits on movement within the house, no running, no yard play, no jumping. I was told I got her in early, so she didn't have any stomach tissue die. Sorry for your loss.
My ten year old female GSD bloated and I went to an emergency clinic that wanted to release the gas with a tube and send her home. I asked "Can you do the stomach tacking surgery"? The vet tech told me that the current on duty vet would not do that, so I went to a another nearby emergencey vet and he did the surgery with stomach tacking. Afterward I found out that the second emergency vet who did the surgery, bred poodles and had done the surgery numerous times over many decades for his own dogs. I then took her to my regular vet for recovery and he said he would have done the same surgery, if he were open at the the time of the bloating. Both of these vets were very old men, the vet that refused stomach tacking was much younger (probably mid to late 30's). My female recovered 100% in three months with very strict limits on movement within the house, no running, no yard play, no jumping. I was told I got her in early, so she didn't have any stomach tissue die. Sorry for your loss.
by dogshome9 on 04 January 2012 - 04:01
We decided in advance that we would not opt for surgery and my vet agreed that given her other problems it was in her best interest to let her go.
Jola had neurological problems if you look at her last photo you may see that her left eye has sunken into the socket because she has lost all of the muscle above the left eye and her skull is caved in. This problem began about 5 years ago and my vet at that time ( and my present vet ) advised us to just let her enjoy the time that she had left so we feel that she did very well.
During the last 18 month she had started to have episodes of being off balance, staggering to the left with a head tilted and on a couple of occasions where she fell to the ground stiff as a board and we just had to wait until she relaxed enough to move her.
After she was PTS my vet remarked that he could feel an abnormal lump in her abdomen and he felt that it may have contributed to her bloating.
by dogshome9 on 05 January 2012 - 05:01
Piper,
I am sorry that your dog suffered the same condition as Jola and that she passed at such a young age.
Before I left my vet I did let him know that I was very much aware that she could possibly bloat again in the near future and that I would keep a very good eye on her but I did not expect for it to happen quite that soon. The trip home from the vet only took 20 minutes and she bloated in front of my eyes as soon as I unloaded her from the car.
Heart breaking to watch. I recently saw the YouTube video posted here on the database of a dog bloating and found that I could not watch it to the end, I could not believe how anyone could stand by and watch their dog bloat and not rush it to the vet!!!. This world is full of pathetic voyeurs who watch and do nothing to ease anothers pain.
I am sorry that your dog suffered the same condition as Jola and that she passed at such a young age.
Before I left my vet I did let him know that I was very much aware that she could possibly bloat again in the near future and that I would keep a very good eye on her but I did not expect for it to happen quite that soon. The trip home from the vet only took 20 minutes and she bloated in front of my eyes as soon as I unloaded her from the car.
Heart breaking to watch. I recently saw the YouTube video posted here on the database of a dog bloating and found that I could not watch it to the end, I could not believe how anyone could stand by and watch their dog bloat and not rush it to the vet!!!. This world is full of pathetic voyeurs who watch and do nothing to ease anothers pain.
by hexe on 05 January 2012 - 07:01
dogshome9, hopefully it will ease your mind somewhat to know that the video you watched was shot by the dog's owners who are novices, and didn't know what they were seeing initially...once they became aware of what was happening and how serious the situation was, the dog was rushed to the vets, treated appropriately and recovered uneventfully. While it IS hard to watch, especially if you've ever handled a dog that was bloating and were familiar with the extreme pain it causes, I do commend this dog's owners for being brave enough to admit that they were unaware, and for sharing the footage which allows it to educate other novice dog owners who've never been exposed to a bloating dog.
by dogshome9 on 05 January 2012 - 09:01
hexe,
I guess you are correct even though for someone who knows what is taking place and just how much pain it causes to the dog ( I just cannot stand to see an animal in so much pain ).
I have worked as a veterinary nurse for many years so I was aware to the fact she was bloating and knew she required treatment ASAP so that video would be educational for those that are not aware of what is taking place and it could save the life of another dog.
I guess you are correct even though for someone who knows what is taking place and just how much pain it causes to the dog ( I just cannot stand to see an animal in so much pain ).
I have worked as a veterinary nurse for many years so I was aware to the fact she was bloating and knew she required treatment ASAP so that video would be educational for those that are not aware of what is taking place and it could save the life of another dog.
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