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by darylehret on 19 October 2011 - 02:10
I think you're confused BE. Did you "train" those behaviors into the sire? And, even if you did somehow unknowingly do so, and assuming the behavior isn't genetic; how do you know you didn't unknowingly teach the offspring by the same unconscious efforts of your handling manners that the sire supposedly would have learned by?
The behaviors you're describing are completely genetic in my opinion, hardly different than how the hereditary behaviors of a shepherd dog's approach toward handling livestock are passed on to it's offspring.
The noteworthy observation that all pups are not identical in a litter doesn't change the fact that the genetics of each pup is composed in it's entirity from half of the genetics of each parent, the only exception being the sex chromosome. Different pups acquire different halves, is all. In some ways like splitting a deck of cards, and reshuffling with a different half-deck.
It's true that some things can be passed on hereditarily and NOT be genetic, but these are exceptional circumstances that have to do with binding proteins on the regulatory dna during the transcription process. The best case example I can think of right now was related to toxins that were hereditarily passed on in amphibian studies.
In behavioral genetics studies, many involving separated twins and cohabitating unrelated siblings, it has been shown that environment does play about a 52% influence as compared to genetics. But that still has nothing to do with a hereditary transfer of learned behaviors (training), as has been suggested.
The behaviors you're describing are completely genetic in my opinion, hardly different than how the hereditary behaviors of a shepherd dog's approach toward handling livestock are passed on to it's offspring.
The noteworthy observation that all pups are not identical in a litter doesn't change the fact that the genetics of each pup is composed in it's entirity from half of the genetics of each parent, the only exception being the sex chromosome. Different pups acquire different halves, is all. In some ways like splitting a deck of cards, and reshuffling with a different half-deck.
It's true that some things can be passed on hereditarily and NOT be genetic, but these are exceptional circumstances that have to do with binding proteins on the regulatory dna during the transcription process. The best case example I can think of right now was related to toxins that were hereditarily passed on in amphibian studies.
In behavioral genetics studies, many involving separated twins and cohabitating unrelated siblings, it has been shown that environment does play about a 52% influence as compared to genetics. But that still has nothing to do with a hereditary transfer of learned behaviors (training), as has been suggested.
by BabyEagle4U on 19 October 2011 - 03:10
I didn't have anything to do with the sire he's in another country. But ya, I think some training is genetic, like with NVBK dogs. Is this the GSD forum or all breed forum ? I can't tell on this Android. If it's the GSD section, I apoligize for my posts.
by darylehret on 19 October 2011 - 03:10
"like with NVBK dogs" doesn't mean anything to me. You're saying you believe that a dog can impart it's training to it's offspring hereditarily? What are you drinking at the campfire tonight? ;-)
by BabyEagle4U on 19 October 2011 - 03:10
I'm not gonna argue with you, but ya, I said what I think. Good luck with it.
by Pirates Lair on 19 October 2011 - 03:10
I don’t believe training is genetic, I do believe that “Traits” are genetic and inherent
JMO
Kim
JMO
Kim
by alboe2009 on 19 October 2011 - 04:10
I'm with you GSDguy08,
"Any Shepherd if raised properly is capable of bitework" What does capable mean? Do it once? Continuosly? So-So? Expertly? and so forth...... I think other threads along these lines have been brought up? For the majority, some are exceptional but all the training in the world won't help. It's like anything else in life. Pro athlete..... does his/her daughter/son have the genetics to be a pro athlete? All the training in the world won't make some a pro atlete.
For dogs...... Do we think that every "water" dog loves the water? Or every Greyhound can race?
"Any Shepherd if raised properly is capable of bitework" What does capable mean? Do it once? Continuosly? So-So? Expertly? and so forth...... I think other threads along these lines have been brought up? For the majority, some are exceptional but all the training in the world won't help. It's like anything else in life. Pro athlete..... does his/her daughter/son have the genetics to be a pro athlete? All the training in the world won't make some a pro atlete.
For dogs...... Do we think that every "water" dog loves the water? Or every Greyhound can race?
by Ibrahim on 19 October 2011 - 08:10
Kim, Alboo2009 & Daryl,
I find myself closer to your point of view, I think Daryl explained it best.
Ibrahim
I find myself closer to your point of view, I think Daryl explained it best.
Ibrahim
by Red Sable on 19 October 2011 - 10:10
I thought BE meant what Kim said, but didn't know quite how to word it. Impossibe for training to be genetic.
Anyhoo, Kim said what I think is true. Much of it is genetic, and you can really see the difference in dogs.
Anyhoo, Kim said what I think is true. Much of it is genetic, and you can really see the difference in dogs.
by Ibrahim on 19 October 2011 - 10:10
Lol Red Sable, I hope I am not agreeing to contradicting stands, I understand what Daryl said perfectly, if I understood what BE said correctly then I don't agree with her. If at a point I find it difficult to comprehend any of what will be posted later I will PM you, that is if you don't mind doing some simplifications for me, lol again.
Ibrahim
Ibrahim
by Red Sable on 19 October 2011 - 10:10
I didn't read Daryl's post, but just did now, and yes, Ibrahim, he is spot on IMO too!
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