Observations about Breeders and Trainers - Page 2

Mystere, yes high ethical value is high on the list for traits of a "Reputable Breeder but I still believe the #1 trait should be consistent breeding for more than 2 generations. (does not mean more than 2 litters)

I can be brand new to the breed and buy two dogs titled/ofa/kkl and breed them, and sale them with the highest ethical standard. but does that really make me a reputable breeder. I believe many if not the majority of breeders fall in this pool, or not far from it.

Blackthorne, after reading your comment about switching over to agility and herding I had to look at your profile to see if you were another highly skilled schutzhund lady I knew who switched over to agility. She stated something very similiar, saying that she got burnt out of schutzhund but enjoyed agility because she had to learn how to teach dogs new behaviors versus the same routine of schutzhund. (I can only respect this statement coming from someone who has had experience and success in the sport as herself)

You would be surprised, if not shocked, at the number of schmucks among us who are breeding from excellent breeding stock,multiple generation breeding programs,as well as active trainers. Caveat emptor.

Mystere, I'm going to have to increase my vocabulary. Reading your post i have to keep wikipedia and a dictionary link on standby. "Let buyers beware," lol I had to get a lesson in Latin to recognize the sarcasm in your statement

I didn't leave schutzhund because of the training or the routine. I left because of the travel (for nearly 8 years I drove 5-12 hours a week to go to training) and the politics and the sheer overwhelming negativity. I had forgotten how to enjoy my dog for who he was and how to just go out and have fun.

I'm not saying that we must all be pollyannas never seeing the negatives of our dogs--just that there's a vast difference between watching your club members' dogs and looking for something to dislike versus looking for things to like and praise and enjoy.

As far as your question:

So blackthorne what level of training experience do you think a breeder should have to properly be able to evaluate a dog for breeding and evaluating puppies for home placement. Or do you believe a successful breeder can successfully and consistently evaluate a dog or puppy withouth out ever titling a dog or having that level of training experience.  How can you evaluate a dog to be of high caliber for breeding if you have never handled or worked a dog of high caliber?  I know there are other training venues besides schutzhund but since schutzhund is what many use as part of their breed survey, let us stick with that as our measuring rod for this post.

I don't think that's for me (or anyone) to dictate. I very much respect someone who puts the work into titling a dog, but I don't think that necessarily makes them more knowledgeable than someone who hasn't.

And I don't think that knowing how to train a 270+ scoring dog in schutzhund will necessarily give that person the ability to read a dog who is looking at sheep or to know how to teach a high-drive dog to sit quietly on a table while its kennelmate is playing tug 10 feet away--or how to match a puppy from a litter to the buyer in front of them.

I value agility for the creative and positive thinking they have done in their training--the best dogs are trained to respond to a variety of complex queues off-leash in a highly distracting environment--and to do so happily and voluntarily. The creative and disciplined training that some of these people are doing has significantly impressed me. (Check out some videos by Susan Garrett for example.)

There will always be schmucks who talk a good game but really can't tell a good dog from a hole in the ground--and I think everyone who goes to look for a trainer or a breeder, for guidance or a new dog, has to use their wits and their eyes and decide for themselves whether someone knows what he or she is talking about. And there will always be those who can't tell when they're being sold a leaky boat.

Christine Kemper

My best teachers have been those who have practiced their subject matter in real life. They know what it takes to be successful in that field of that subject matter. Other teachers, may be good, but they are only teaching from a theoretical base (book knowledge) not always practical. The teachers who have worked in the field of their respective subject matter knows what it takes to be successful and how to mold and produce those standards in their students.

I view breeders in the same manner. If they haven't actually worked or trained a dog how can they confess to know what it takes to produce a high quality dog on a consistent basis.

Blackthorne I do agree there are some excellent trainers who only train on the club level. Two come to my mind. One of those two previously competed on the national scene but now only competes on the club level. He is also the training director of the club and focusses the majority of his energy  and time trying to excell the other club members. The other trainer that comes to mind was the training director of another club. As the trainer director she worked free of charge for years. She left schutzhund and began competing in agility, but the club she lefts pays for her consultation from time to time. Another national/wusv competitor recognizes her skill and pays for her consultation as well. But neithe of these excellent trainers breed.

Christine and Mystere I really appreciate you taking the time to respond (respectfully and intelligently). i have learned quite a bit from this short conversation and hope other new and inexperienced GSD buyers can benifit from reading this thread.