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Koots

by Koots on 26 August 2016 - 16:08

So, Les, I admit that I didn't read your whole post but skimmed it and read the highlighted parts. My question is - all those accomplishments of your dogs, are they "titles" as per your argument? If so, what "qualifications" have you and your dogs achieved?

 

PS - this only requires a 100 word, or less, answer.Wink Smile


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 26 August 2016 - 17:08

Bav, Les can speak for himself; but for me its not ABOUT (just) "show ring handling", it is about all kinds of other interaction with GSDs as well (including managing a security kennel full of them, up until 5 years ago - and my interest in the dogs, and contacts in the breed, did not all suddenly disappear the day i retired). It is about shovelling shit from kennels, it is about worrying over a dog that's ill, its about taking an interest in what friends are acheiving with their dogs, and it is about keeping up with what is going on in the breed, and the 'politics', in one's own country and clubs, and in the world as a whole. And whether you agree or not, there is value to the breed - and to the people in it - in hearing what older people with that continuity of experience have to say. We are not all personally responsible for the bad things that have happened. (Indeed,some of us have actually fought against them ! - even where ultimately unsuccessful.) Unless you would rather muzzle, or shoot ?, everyone over, say, 45 unless they dare comment on anything ?Tongue Smile


susie

by susie on 26 August 2016 - 18:08

Edit: Sorry, I forgot...

for Les Pauling:

 

What is a BS.Cl.1 or BS.Cl.2 ?
I guess
"BS" = breed survey
"Cl" = Körklasse

but what are the requirements for a BS in your country?

Otherwise I loved to see the names "Dr. Simon" and "B. Wienecke" - names forgotten long ago in my country, formerly well known judges out of my Landesgroup...

Les, in case you wouldn´t behave like the "English language police" all of us would like to talk to you, but almost nobody likes a "faultfinder"; and you are a faultfinder, not really discussing the topic, not really answering questions, but searching for "formal" faults first and foremost.
Your believe in the English language may be honorable, but outdated. We are not talking about Latin, we are talking about an internationally used, living language - and we are talking right now on an International DOG board, used by dog sport and pedigree enthusiasts.

And now I hope you don´t start to correct me again - my first language is the German language, you want to talk German?
Maybe French instead or Latin? But don´t be offended in case I start to correct your faults...


by Bavarian Wagon on 26 August 2016 - 18:08

Sorry hund, when you're more worried about what to call the letters in front or behind a dog's name and when you're more worried about telling random strangers about how one of your "ancestors" was nominated for an award at some point that has nothing to do with German Shepherds on a topic discussing dogs...your experience loses value really fast.

And sure, if you just stopped 5 years ago you might still have some insight into today's breed. But 20? You're 10 generations removed from what's out there today...

I value people's input...but sorry...you lose any and all credibility when you start lecturing people on what to call a couple of letters rather than trying to achieve them.

by Bavarian Wagon on 26 August 2016 - 18:08

Here is the New Zealand breed survey for those interested...

http://www.nzgsdac.org.nz/breedsurveys.html

Yeah...no "qualification" requirement and not even a protection portion during the breed survey.

Sorry hund...this is why I don't care for what this person has to offer...it's not the showing, it's the removal of important information like the fact that the requirements for the NZ breed survey in no way compare with the requirements for an SV or USCA breed survey and yet he offers the fact that he has attained those breed surveys without making note of the fact that there isn't the titling requirement and that the dogs aren't tested in any way except for a glorified temperament test for a pet dog.

 

Wanted to add...Les is correct that the judges were wrong in passing his dogs in breed surveys and koers...the dogs shouldn't have even been allowed to enter due to their lack of working title, AD, and show rating.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 26 August 2016 - 20:08

Tell that to the SV, Bav. They opened membership to the clubs in other countries without any directions. As previously discussed, the SV should have insisted that if we (UK), America, Australia and New Zealand (and wherever else) wanted to join, wanted to get their judges accredited, there would need to be changes. They should adopt - or phase in adoption of - all the qualifying stages : BH, AD, IPO or the equivalents then, AND run Surveys equivalent to Korung from the 'off'. I don't often praise the US but in this regard they came further and faster than all the rest of us. Things are changing / improving; but from that standpoint, you really cannot hold individual breed enthusiasts guilty for not doing what they did not have to do.

susie

by susie on 26 August 2016 - 20:08

You are right, Hundmutter, in case stead of "collecting" as many new member countries as possible SV should have strictly insist on the German rules, or at least equivalents of them.
Less member countries - better dogs.


by Bavarian Wagon on 26 August 2016 - 21:08

I'm not holding any breed enthusiast guilty of anything, just pointing out to the rest of the readers how the information provided by those breed enthusiasts isn't what it seems. In the United States, although the GSDCA is a WUSV member, they don't call their championships breed surverys or koers. They have temperament tests which they call just that...temperament tests. They aren't purposely using language which make others believe their test is something that it isn't.

I can also definitely call out members of the forum who try to make themselves sound smarter than they are by listing off accomplishments that don't mean nearly what they do in the rest of the world. When a member decides to also back up the claim that they know something about protection work because they've once out witted someone in another country which doesn't have a very strong history of dog training about protection work...they are opening the door for me to show how their experience doesn't really hold merit in the rest of the world. The ratings, koers, and breed surveys received in NZ are CLEARLY not equal to what Germany or the United States does, yet the person still wants to fight about how they have more knowledge about the breed than those of us in countries which abide by SV rules and have much higher standards for those "titles."

Sorry...the smoke and mirrors, diverting people's thoughts by comparing to other subjects, spewing educational history of ancestors that don't matter at all on this forum, bringing up writers from hundreds of years ago, trying to make statements to show how much better they are then the rest of us when none of it has to do with GSD is getting old. I don't care how many times someone read the Oxford Dictionary, it has absolutely squat to do with German Shepherds, dog shows, and what people in the modern world refer to as titles.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 27 August 2016 - 06:08

As I said, Les can defend himself ... but I am not sure exactly WHERE he told you he has "more knowledge about the breed than (you)" do ? Too busy correcting posters' English ! I think he was justifying his OWN degree of breed knowledge, because you had impugned it. JMHO, FWIW.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 27 August 2016 - 06:08

Susie, I think we could say we CAN produce dogs to a good standard in the UK (I've heard some SV judges tell exhibitors here that the bitches are quite as good as those in Germany); but the breed as a whole would be improved, faster, provably better if we had been constrained to operate under the German system from early on in the history of the GSD in the UK.  Unfortunately our parochial Kennel Club never saw it that way; has actually stood in the way at times (eg its refusal to allow Germanic qualifications and titles acheived to be printed on pedigrees, whether gained in the UK or in Germany).  Wouldn't do to have a (red) note that a sire was a Seiger, alongside Brit. 'Champions', don'cha'know !

 

The problems being discussed earlier about those people who DO want to work-&-temperament proof their stock being in a minority and therefore always having to battle lack of people, lack of helpers, lack of accessible Clubs has not helped.  Add to that, the established KC backed Trials ( Obedience CD, UD etc up to PD stakes) with their hugely more convenienced structure were a diversion for a lot of GSD owners.  The Brits wanting to do 'everything our own way' again, based on the history of the UK in being to the forfront of dog breeding generally;  ok, useful for national pride and all that, but ultimately a handicap in the world at large.

 

I just don't claim to know how NZ, Oz or anywhere else stacks up, really, in terms that would satisfy Bav. ...






 


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