Just another Sport Dog - Page 24

My dogs can deal with an out early on...no problem. Nothing special about outing a youngster...all mine know what out means....when I give the command.

However, when it's the very first time to  work the dog on a decoy, who also is a stranger to the dog ( and me), having the dog out immediately after the decoy slips the tug/sleeve will not allow me to see what the dog is thinking. In other words, is he going to hold and be possessive, or 'kill' it , or munch it, or spit it and refocus on decoy.

If the decoy slips the sleeve or tug as soon as the dog strikes there isn't an opportunity to give an out. Timing is everything.

Years ago, I had a decoy/helper who was great starting pups and building foundation but he died. Old timers with his knowledge and experience are a rare species. A decoy who apprenticed under him is the next best thing within 75 miles of me, but he is so much in demand nowadays, it's not easy to get time with him.

Compairing dogs that have not had foundation bite work other than what I can do by myself, with dogs that have access to a trainer/helper from 'cradle to grave'  is interesting.
I'm pushing seventy, but I'm still outside enjoying my dogs and educating them.
I like to work my dogs according to the individual dog.

Response to Duke - Of course Duke... some dogs have as we both know a very high defensive behavior - innate genetic predispostition. and others a low , a very very low predisposition . Same notion for those with predatory predispositions. Dogs with high genetic defenise pedispostions will bend that way because the behavior manifests automatically is like the blinking of their eyes . I was trying to make a point that for some behaviors ,[ on the average dog not one skewed to defense] , for example an 'out ', when not taught when the dog tells you that it ready makes things more difficult in the future to teach and for some to control , genertally and of course not always . Perhaps this has not an affect for people like you and me.. but for less experienced perhaps, and those even less experienced a big issue- again I write to and for the general reading audience. Not to mention if you watch Sch and IPo jow often do you see people run up to the dog after an exercise and clip on the leash . if the dog is under control at all times , including no dirty out's /bites.. then why does a handler need do that ? Most often they nhad the Ol school notion to build drive , build drive , as if the dogs didn't want to bite, and then when the dog is so out of control , they say something stupid like : we need to cap the drive. translatewd for the average reader. I didn't teach the dog to control itself , like an out of control teenager , now I have to drastically do something about it. Yup , that's a ' cap' for ya all. Not eveything is as it seems to be. And the truth about teaching your dogs perhaps is a little bit of what everyone has to say .

I'm going to defend the helper, were there things that watching the video many of us that "know" would do differently? Sure. It's also something that can easily be done the next session. The helper was working a fairly mature and older dog and the initial work was exactly what most would do. Rarely if ever are you going to get a helper that comes out with an older dog and gets things going by throwing tugs/sleeves around.

Depending on the information given, a helper will also have certain predispositions on how to work the dogs that are being brought out. It's really unfair to make such judgements about a helper the first time out with dogs.

Unfortunately...the decision made to not work with the helper doesn't help anyone. In my opinion, if someone claims to have knowledge and have the ability to train a dog, they should be more than willing to train someone who is clearly willing to come out and learn and do the work. The idea that only the experienced and "ready" helpers can work dogs is what holds back helpers and the sport from growing and eventually becoming great. Truthfully...if the guy is safe, and in a situation where the dogs aren't being trained or groomed for a special task and are just going to be "fun dogs" I don't understand why the work wouldn't continue. The dogs could learn and so could the helper.

BW, I agree with you 100%. That is what I would very much liked to have done.

However, our philosophies weren't compatable. He wants to 'make sure any dogs are working in defense'. I told him my first dog was too inexperienced, has never been worked, is only a yearling,  and that he is very prey oriented.

That session with the first dog ( videos posted) went fine. But he worked the second dog the same way...even though I told him it won't be right for the older dog (4 yr old).
Picture of him as two yr old...

This dog is ppd type. He has a low threshold for defense, has confidence and loves the fight, like his sire. The decoy wants to teach the dog to 'defend himself and go for the hand with the weapon' ....that, to me, is goofy and unrealistic, and mind cluttering for the dog.

I told him I want a dog that's safe around people (like he already is), not create a nut. We already know that dog will bite when appropriate and stay in the fight and still have a clear head. ( I had sent him a couple clips of the dog). He doesn't need to get pushed into frustration doing a lot of prey then predator then prey while tied back and barking crouched down ready to take the guy down if he gets within range of the restraint. This dog has already proven he will bite when appropriate, last thing I need is to teach him to trigger off somebody dancing around in front of him.

I was willing to give him a go, he wasn't willing to change his 'routine' to suit the individual dogs.

BW .. I accept your disagreement. Novices , THINK about what I write if you choose.

In any dscipline in life. If you play billiards , tennis , football there are certain absolute fundamentals that must be leaned and mastered- FIRST . Sometimes the sequence of each fundamental to be learned can be different. However , in teaching and interacting [ BTW , I dont say 'work' the dog , that is a whole different topic that is out of wack - you don't work a dog] .. all dogs bite , yes ? ,Then why not consider anything else foremost in protection disciplines other than aiding the dog to realize that best it bites full . Secondly that it bites hard, dam hard and third , fast , lightening fast . What good does it do a dog to bite fast but crappy ? , get the point. When I hear - do things differently , I wonder ! nd we teach the dog how to target and calculate trajectory. If one does not aid the dog in homing skills , then how can the dog best function in any context or scenario. And I pruposely did not write the words 'prey or 'defense' ... I purposely used the word context. Skills and then successful application builds confidence and right mindset. How do you expect someone to be a good orator when that person has not homed his enuncition , pronounciation skills ? So , when I hear people work dogs differently , that to me might be an indication that person , excuse the crudeness, does not know what the hell he is doing ! What value is it to teach a dog to enter or target when his bitefullness is insufficient for the ultimate task to be accomplished. Granted each dog should be interacted in accorance with it's individuality . Yes . But on the topic of doing things diferently , there is a difference between interacting with individua dogs differntly and iusing different tools . However there should be no difference in the concepts and fundamentals being taught. . I can teach some GS with no collar , others a buckle collar, others prong collar or martingale collar - that is different .. using tools also should go hand in hand with common sense and a good helper uses different tools at different times.. THAT is different. But then agai, I do see some helpers always use the same tolls , do the same thing. In myn post previuosly , the tools that were used and the concpets to be taught to the dog were not optimal. TYhe set up was counter to ther dog best biting. THAT is what the helper should have realized. Not an issue ab out someone doing something different. The context was contrry to what should be taught. And I wantedJo to recognize this as it is my opinion. I wanted her to see , even if she was evauating the helper .. the helper hand no mindset about interating with the dog IMOp , test or no test. Bottom line when I don't see a newbie helper or an experienced hlper teaching and interacting with my dog .. no i don't mean work the dog , I mean teach the dog.. then goodbye.

Why in seeing a dog behave would you allow that beahvior to be contrary to what you will tech in another lesson . To illustrate : someone came to me 4 weeks ago who wanted to do IPO with someone in another US State. That person told me their 4 month pup retrieved. they said , oh ya , when we throw the ball he comes back and drops the ball right at our feet .[ someone at a Sch club taught them that , they never ever trained a dog before] . That is what you get by ' helpers doing things differently ' comment . I said to them .. " don't do that anymore" . They were novices and they said we also do the two ball routine and the dog brings the ball right back and drops it to chase the ball . So I said " why teach the dog that ' dog when you return drop the ball at out feet ' . Don't you expect later in IPO the dog to bring back a dumbell in the retrieve exercise and have it sit in front and wait to give it to you when told" ? They looked again and I said , " then why teach your dog that when it brings something back to drop that item to the ground - you will only have to go back and clean that behavior , why imprint that in the dog in the first place " . Just about everytime I hear the term " people do things differently" , I think how much[ helper ] people have no clue. Yes , they work dogs but teaching is far far different matter . So be careful on the 'different ways' helpers , trainers do things !
Last comment : I have a Cardinal rule and when I see it broken , as I do so many times , especially at clubs , I want to hit the helper off the side of the , absolutely no business , interacting with them both. You have no business trying to teach that dog protection . IMOp , the helperJo worked with did not understand the dog. He just tried as the expression goes , working the dog. Why I make this comment : Jo explained to me that she wanted to se how he worked the dog for employment... my viewpoint is that the best way to show what you got , sort of speak , is understanding the dog and teaching the dog what it needed to learn . Showing her that he could teach the dog waht it needed to learn !! That is what makes a great helper !! THAT IMOp makes a good helper , not one that can go through a routine , and do this and do that .. Not to meantioned in what he did for a routine was with many errors. Nor did I see him interact with her . A handler is 50% , yes 50% of the the equation . That is another issue I previously purposely omitted. Now this post / commetry is not about Jo or her dog .. I write this for newcomers to understand something when they take their dogs somewhere , when they go to clubs etc etc. When I hear helpers do things differently ... makes me really really wonder ....

It’s completely unfair to a helper to sit back, watch a video, actually see where things go wrong, and then rip the helper apart. Let’s break down the situation, young dog, little work, pretty much zero stamina, the helper has 3-5 minutes to do something with the dog before the dog is tired and can’t work anymore. Not sure the kind of direction that was given, what I saw in the video was what most handlers do…let the helper do everything. If there was an issue after the first round of defense, handler should’ve said something, handler didn’t say anything. The reason no one mentions this…the handler is on the forum and will defend them self, the helper is not on the forum and is an easy target. There is also a certain level of respect and probably fear for and of the handler on this forum, so that causes less criticism.

The truth is that when an older dog is brought out, and I’m going to assume it’s also talked up plenty (we all do it), the helper already has a certain predisposition for how to work that kind of dog. What this particular helper did is what I see/expect the majority of helpers in this country to do when a dog of that age is presented in front of them. For every helper that would’ve focused on making a better grip, there would’ve been 10 people screaming about how the dog is sleeve focused and how that needs to be remedied. This helper focused on that, and someone is out there hounding the work because the grip isn’t there.

The saddest thing is that people who haven’t proven their own training theories are out here judging someone they don’t know. I’ve been on this forum for months now and I believe I’m the only one that mentioned anything about actually getting out there and titling my dog. Plenty of people have advice on how to do this or that, yet nothing to show for it. Wonder how that advice actually works.

Here’s what I’m assuming: 1.5 year old dog, last thing the handler would do is admit the dog’s grip is weak, so she doesn’t mention it to the helper that the session should focus on working the grip. Dog presents itself as sleeve/toy focused, you can see the dog is focused on the tug the majority of the time that it’s barking, helper goes to teach the dog to look at the man, not the toy. Strike on the tug is fine, grip isn’t horrid, helper continues to work the dog up to get onto the soft arm thing. Dog doesn’t like the pressure, helper goes back to the tug. Biggest issue with the whole session, there isn’t a goal, not short term, not long term…neither helper or dog have anything they’re training towards.

And your theory on dropping a ball affecting a dumbbell retrieve...leave that in the 1980 AKC ring. Dog's are much smarter than you give them credit for...you can allow dogs to drop balls and *gasp* dumbbells and they'll still do perfect retrieves without issues if you know what you're doing.

Bw, you didn't see any video from me showing 'every thing that went wrong'. Never posted such video.
And now you are inventing conversation that didn't happen. I didn't 'rip the decoy apart'. But you are intent on ripping me apart employing conversation you invented. And now you are ripping my dog appart. 

Again, you made another false statement saying there was no 'short term, long term goal'. FYI, Mr Allknowing, the goal conveyed to the the helper was ipo for the young dog, ppd for the adult dog.

You make it clear once again, your goal is ; 'identify, isolate, and destroy'. Go feed your demented personality somewhere else, howbout it. 

 Your invented scenario, opinion and bias are meaningless and of no value. 

It's clear that remaining decent and having a respectable conversation is impossible for you. 

You must believe you are omniscient, that you can watch a couple short videos and in you mind, know the conversation that took place. 

Are you so insecure that you need to bash me and my dogs every time I come on this forum? 

Or are you a SJW who must make up problems to defend against meanies like me? 

So howbout you go 'learn' your robot, miserable tool so you can feel great about how you are master of all that breath..../src

I didn't say you ripped the helper, others are doing quite the good job doing it.

Lol...good to know that on this forum, my opinion is meaningless and has no value. Only person to title a dog in the last few months, yet when it comes to IPO and bite work, my opinion doesn't matter at all. You're right Joan, the only opinions that matter are those that give you praise, anything that even resembles criticism isn't worth anything...that's American IPO and dog training in general for you. If you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all...even if it would help you get somewhere with the training. We'd all rather sit around and talk about how amazing we are without proving anything.

This is the epitome of IPO…if the helper can’t make your average dog look like a world beater, dismiss the helper and the trainer and everyone else. Too hard to admit that the dog is just plain lacking. I know exactly what some of the “real dog” masters on this forum would say about this dog if they actually had to evaluate it for dual purpose work…maybe some of them will actually chime in, I doubt it though, it’s more important to keep the relationship and avoid the wrath than to speak the truth about what can be seen in the videos posted.

I can also promise you that seeing that first bite on the soft sleeve…your “easy IPO” wouldn’t be as easy as you think it is.

 

I'd also like more information on what is a robot and miserable tool? Are you speaking about me or my dog? In either case...doesn't seem like proper etiquete on this forum. Also...lets point out to everyone that the only thing I did "disrespectful" was disagree with you. The only person that TRULY said anything disrespectful...was you...as is in most cases with threads you're involved in.

BW, what is your point/purpose in anything you post? Really ? What do you gain from going after me and any one who has anything positive to say and trashing every thred ?

Enough of the back and forth please. Take your personal issues with each other to PM's, thanks.