Just another Sport Dog - Page 23

that was what I was wondering as I saw your last competition dog bred some IPO3 females, didnot know the age however

Finally got video working Bw very nice . I like his speed seems to have a great noses . Best of luck

He has a good deep nose, knows his job, but I let off of him too early before trial (still learning the dog) and he definitely sped up more than I'd like. The conditions were great too so he had a very easy time and therefore picked up speed after every turn. I was balancing corrections and keeping the attitude and he had a little too much attitude by trial day...still pulled off a very good score though, highest score of his 3 phases too. It's wonderful working with a natural tracker.

Yogidog: ' Nice dog joan looks strong plenty of drive but seems very clear in the head . Very nice strong bark good speed .'

 

Thanks, yogi.

The decoy was fast, too. At timer 1:37, my dog almost got a live bite, lol. Good thing he was backtied. https://www.dropbox.com/s/7h1w4sqeqnuvv35/VIDEO0263.mp4?dl=0

Joan, BW both of you have very nice working dogs from what I can see. Keep up the good work!

Hi Joan I viewed the first video of the two that you recently posted. Before I comment I want to say , as a handler you did nice, very nice handling. The work session was good ,.... pretty good , but with a more experienced helper , and I don't mean to say that he is not ok , but with a more experienced helper , IMOp the session could have been better for the dog. Not a bad session , but there could have been more constructive learning for the dog.

Part of what I say is because of the philosophy of IPO / Schutzhund relating to working the dog. Many times I have written on the PDB , that I do not train method or technique. So , for one. And mind you I have been tested in my ability to train and teach Sch. And consider that this is a opinion and not a criticism.

What was the purpose in the helper's mind for this session ? What exactly , specifically was this helper trying to accomplishas a learning lesson . If I looked at this and to say to myself ,Motivation Development , then .. I answer to myself is : this dog does not need motivation - this is a super nice working dog ! If I say bite grip development , then there are a lot of mistakes in the notion of developing the bite grip [ fullness  and hardness factors] . I am talking about the teachin, not the dog's ability. If one thinks about teaching / enhancing  ' entry ' , this dog would not have any problem of ' entry ' ... and tying this dog back on a solid line is counter to advancin or improving  his  'entry ' and  also other factors like targeting and trajectory . For example, this is indicated as you see the dog crouch. The crouch is not due to trying to cope with psychological pressure but  rather to try to problem solve his intial attack strike .  A dog being clothes lined back does nothing to improve skills ans their are other back tie  ways to interact with the dog.  The dog also at times posses his tug away from the helper. For my purposes,  I would prefer the dog to be successful in vanquishing ,  while on the body. The succcess in ' the bite' is within the helper's body spave and mofre so while in contact with the hlepr. There are other ways utilizing back tying a dog to develop this. This  dog takes possesion of the bite tug at times not merely pulling out of the helper's body space but precciesly when he is cleared from his body space. Again not IMOp the best start and finish of a begining and an end of a bite at a certain point of progression  in the teaching .


I see that there are  two lines on the dog . Philosophically- WHY ? One is used within the confines of getting the dog to out the tug. There lies the biggest , THE BIGGEST problem in IPO , thinking that teaching a dog to out[ erly  in teaching] kills motivation [ at a certain point in the traininga dog must learn this , yes , and this dog was far past that point ] ! Absolutely teaching early an 'out' does not harm motivation - it should be taught at a certain point that the dogs tells you it is ready . As a matter of fact if the out is taught correctly the dog becomes MORE motivated for the work ! So , this follows : why does the helper allow you to choke the dog off a bite/tug instead of teaching you to in a calm normal voice require the dog to out ? No stupis yelling , commanding out. just simply , let go of the tug , out. Goodness , even a 12 week pup can learn leave it without duress.  . [ if I was  a first time helper - I would have stopped Immdediately having seen that , right there and realized that the teaching has to be adjusted before I taught another lesson , not session , lesson for the dog to master ]. A dog this fantastic at this point should be wanting to out as much as you want it to out .  A dog should out when simply asked to   under the right time and place in the work's progression stage - and I don 't  want to have use the dog's collar.  My puppies at 20 weeks old learn to out and some were police working capable in their training ! This concept also goes hand in hand with the notion of when and where to teach the dog to control itself rather than you have to Physically [ most often abusively because of the failure to teach] , and Verbally Dominate the dog. The motivations  within the dog's head have to be balanced out :  the willingness to bite and the willingness to get it's mouth off the bite at some point absolutely have to be balanced out- the worst failures to do this creates a very dangerous dog irregardless of temperament !..  Failure to teach the out when it should be taught also is an invitation to control problems and interefernece with the dog's ability to think resulting in poorer performance. I laugh when I see the Ol' way of choking the dog off the slleve by eaising the leash , and or stepping on the irem and pulling the dog up off the ground- THAT IS NOT TEACHING ... IMOp that is abusiveness  and ignorance of the helper / training director !


I see the helper putting the dog on the defensive at times in the video . Because this is , a  one time session video , I do not know completely exactly what was done prior, I have my impressions. But as a rule I never, ever , no matter how gifted the dog is , work the dog in any defensive contexts  first.Which brings me back to entry and and bite grip [ fullness and hardness] - never do I consider any behavior of the dog to have to defend itself unless , and I mean exactly unless , the dog has already have had the utmost in full bite , hardness of grip amd the most speedy [ for that dog] entry for the bite that would plow over and through that helper. With this is also implied that the dog at this point is maximum in confidence and learned coping skills too. That is simply saying I would not put a fighting student into the boxing ring until it was ready . If one deems the bite , enrty is sufficient- then why the need to be back tying the dog- the dog is ready for the next learning lesson ?

So Joan , again you personally have done quite well - I don't expect to you be 'helper knowledgable' , you are a very very good handler,{ helper work is different than handler roles !-, your dog is super and my comment is not intended to be destructive , critical , I was going to PM you , but I want more so , food for thought for the general readers here. The helper is very good , but I think he can be better, With kindness this is written , not malicously to belittle. There is a little more specifically I could comment on , but - enough ...

In regard to those helpers not in this video, but in genral as IPO / Sch helpers : This is also why I laugh at IPO , it is always so choreographed as a routine and as a training phiosophy- always the same ol', same ol' training routine I've seen thousands and thousands of times .You Sch /IPO folks never ever get beyond : ' This is what is done and how we train ". You never advance your thoughts and ways to teach a dog because you are so categorically and philosophically stuck , like a dog in foundation work heavily worked in prey that it becomes " locked into prey behaviors ". Meaning it loses it's ability to later be worked in defense. When will in general you Sch helpers learn what the dogs is saying to you , when will you learn to simply : talk in the language of a canine and communicate to it the lessons you want it to master in conjuction / with you ? That is the second biggest problem . " you work the 'dog' " not ever knowing in truth ... what exactly that entails and how inappropriate the expression by itelf, means. .

centurion, dont think you can train a dog in prey so much that it loses its ability to work in defence,

also, regarding your point of view of teaching the out, I think that every dog has different buildup in drives, hardness, posesiveness etc, therefore the approach for every dog to teach certain things should/could be different for each individual dog, some dogs will out easy, some are hard, so require different approach IMO

 

It takes a certain type of dog to deal with an out from early on. I'll post a video later of one of my males 8 month old pups that is on the suit and already has a clean out. This pup can deal with it. A lot of other dogs can't.

Thank you, Centurion for your post. I need to digest all that you said.

To explain a bit of what happened prior to what you see in the videos: I brought the young dog out of the house, let him pee, had him jump into a crate in the back of the gator, and drove to the field. Opened the crate and snapped a leash on his collar, fitted the harness on him ( first time ever putting a harness on this dog). Led him to the front of the gator and attached a rope tied to bumper of gator with a bullsnap, to the harness ring.

I explained to the decoy that this would be a completely green dog, not worked by a decoy before and that in my opinion, what I see is a dog with high prey drive and that whenever I take him out of a crate from a vehicle, he has his nose t the ground pulling hard attempting to locate a track to follow...which he did this instance. Also, I mentioned how he wants to go after anything moving, like the tires on the gator when I let him go along for a run, have to make it clear to him Not to bite the tires when its rolling....I've seen him grab a tire causing it to flip him.

This was the first time for me meeting this helper in person...he called asking for a job working

dogs.

I told him to work the young dog in prey, no hitting/cracking with the whip, that the dog is always game and doesn't need to be loaded up. I was watching and judging the decoy, he was trying to impress and land a job.

I let him work another dog that is not experienced, only worked one time with a guy using a bite suit. That dog definitely does not need to be worked up with a bunch of prey moves, very different, serious dog, and didn't need to be frustrated to make him bite. Decoy used a sleeve, first time the dog ever had a sleeve, and with a bite bar...if you saw the decoy keep the young dog at a distance, you should see the older dog...as soon as the dog hit, he slipped the sleeve and was absolutely at arm's length. Pretty sure he saw that dog would have messed him up if he was within the space of the restraint. And he made the exact same moves as with the young dog...the older dog was so frustrated that after the sleeve was slppied ( brand new experience having a sleeve) that he a was thrashing it violently...the decoy responded by rapidfire whip cracking ....so my dog spits the sleeve and lunges for my stomach as I'm trying to stop the thrashing. I lift him off my stomach...whip still being cracked, and now my dog comes up the leash after my arm. I pull him away from me, look at the decoy and say, 'STOP CRACKING THAT WHIP !! '( in my mind I finished the sentence with; 'STUPID !!' )

Anyway, I finally calmed my dog enough to get him to sit and look at me. Gave him another bite and decoy was in the next county as my dog made the strike and immediately slipped the sleeve. So, after I explained that IPO cookie cutter decoying would not bennifit my end goal with my dogs, and that I was not looking to hire him to train my dogs but to 'decoy', we parted with a mutual understanding. My dogs weren't harmed, nobody got bitten, but to continue my older dog with the guy would have made a naturally discerning dog into a nut .

I think the young man was very nice, not the type to be abusive in anyway towards a dog, has alot of talent.

He also, he has a lot of potential if he will look at the dog in front of him, learn to read them as individuals, then work them accordingly. No two dogs are the same.