Watered Down sport?? - Page 8

When a dog is screaming, drawing attention of the neighborhood, I consider that abuse.
'Forced' tracking, an ecollar keeping the head down and between the lines, is not tracking. Look at the attitude of a dog forced tracked, compared to a dog that is a natural tracker....genetics is the difference. I want genetic, natural desire to track in my dogs. Forcing a dog to track is equal to sick.

I can wager a large sum ($$) that the people ( trainers/ owners ) who abuse dogs keep these dogs in kennels / crated for long periods, thereby objectifying them; as soon as a animal ( or even a person) is objectified its easy to rationalize there abuse. There is a poster on here who claims expertise but constantly refer to dogs as a "tool" , and has admitted that outside of being "worked" , the dog is crated until next "work " session. On the other hand there is no way that a normal person can live in close daily contact with a dog and then turn around and subject that animal to abuse.

The people in dogsports for whom the points/podium is more important than the dog itself is not fundamentally different from the people with the " thick gold chains and gold teeth "  for whom a pitbull is a "tool " to make nothing but a personality statement. 

Don't forget the act of controlling something, perhaps one of the few things, in certain people's lives. And using that control over another being to help satisfy one's quest for an ego-boosting podium finish.

using that control over another being to help satisfy one's quest for an ego-boosting podium finish

So Koots - Does that relate to only IPO/Ring sports or all sports including, Barn Hunt; Dock Diving; Disk Dogs; Fly ball; ect... Are you saying that one can not strive for bringing a dog to its potential without it being about ego or False Pride (i added that last part)?

 

@joanro

When a dog is screaming....

I completely agree that that scenario is abuse for me in most circumstances. But i also believe that physically stopping a dog at an article, even if with just the slightest pressure on the leash, and having them down at the article is and of itself 'force'. When articles are introduced and the dog does not know it and you make them down by command only or by touch, is 'force'. Even when articles are taught free shaped and the dog at point blows it off and you remind him of the obedience, again that is force.

I get what you are saying about the method of double lining and hammering a dog down the track, to me that is EXCESIVE force. But dont foot your self into thinking that anytime you have taught your dog to do something, it wasnt 'forced'

 

Cutaway, I think you misunderstand what I was getting at. I'm not saying 'force' or better, 'compulsion', is not nessesary in training. But when force causes so much screaming that the neighborhood shows up with ac, I'd call that abuse. And giving a slight bump on the line at an article isn't what I'd call 'force' ...a dog isn't going suffer pain with that little bump to remind him to down. Semantics.
Main thing I was getting at is that if a dog can't track, then its rediculous to 'force' him to track. They always look like they've been beaten and takes all the pleasure out of watching them track because you just know the dog is miserable. Sucks.

Cutaway - perhaps I should have made it more clear that I was expounding on Mithuna's previous post. My post was about the people who are extreme and use dogs as tools to meet their own ends, not seeing them as partners in the work.

And Koots I stand by assertion that any living thing that is objectified or depersonalized is already on the road to being ABUSED.

"My post was about the people who are extreme and use dogs as tools to meet their own ends, not seeing them as partners in the work."

And you know a lot of these kinds of people? Why do you take an extremely small minority, an almost non-existent minority and make it out to be like they're the prototype for the successful trainer?

The fact that you're diminishing someone's accomplishments because they're not what you want to do is extremely funny to me. People talk about ego...every successful person, in every walk of life, in every business, in any competitive venue...has to have ego. You need to have the drive to succeed and to do better. You want to be the guy that just titles your dog's once in a while with decent scores at a club level? Go nuts. If that's your bar for success, I'm extremely happy for you and I'll call you successful when you accomplish your goal. But bashing the people that shoot for podiums at national level and world level just makes you look like a small and petty person. I know for a fact you have NO IDEA how these people treat their dogs and how their dogs live, it's also not your job to make the rules on what's acceptable as to how a dog is treated and how it lives (unless you're speaking about actual animal abuse). People constantly want to push their own life style onto others as if it's the only right and holy way to live...why?

People constantly want to push their own life style onto others as if it's the only right and holy way to live...why?

 

LOLLOL