Just another Sport Dog - Page 25

Bavarian Wagon, your opinion is meaningless to many because they dont know who you are, dont know what you did or achieved, downside of being anonymous

I know who you are and think you are good trainer, know you help other people as well, even people with dogs I sold

about videos

 

 Joan video, I think many people in the USA would be happy with helper like that, referring to the work, dont know ego/caracter of helper

Also think he should work that dog in prey only, no switch to agression in between, dont like the roll, I would use pillow or wedge for better grip and put a long line on it so the helper can put pressure on it when the dog is carrieing it and motivate prey only,

the dog has no problem kicking in agression, so why encourage that now

Also Joan, you should have told him prior to working the dog what you expect from him,

and if you did and he didnot listen you should have stopped the work,

I trained with top level club in holland, was the youngest trainer there but when the helper didnot do what I want,

I took my dog  off the field directly and put him in the car, that also was a prey/agression matter by the way

 

finally for policework I would not fail the dog based on what I see in the video, the dog can shift into agression, and for patrolwork (exept the germans) my clients dont care about full calm grip, they care more if the dog will engage without equipment, and think that is no problem here, to saydefinately if he is suitable one would need to see quite a bit more than this 

Thank you Duke. Very constructive post.

I did explain on the phone for days we discussed these two dogs, and before I took my dog out, I explained I wanted prey work for this dog. When he switched up to defense, and no slapping, whipping, and the dog was handling it well, I let it continue.
As for equipment, all he had was a trial sleeve, so I had him use the roll, the soft sleeve if he wanted.

There was a line on the roll when I handed it to him.

I would not have a problem with him with just this dog, but my other dog....different story. The guy said he wanted to 'specialize' in personal protection training. It told him I did not want my dog jacked up, but to keep him calm. Didn't happen, so the session was cut off after three bites....that's the dog pictured on previous page.
The guy wasn't keen with only training with two dogs...his aim innitially was to 'train up' some of my dogs and give me three thousand, he gets two, and sell them to a broker who has customers for PPD. I asked who was going to pay me for upkeep of kennel of dogs, ofa, health guarantees, vet bills, my time whelping, raising pups for one or two years, time obedience training them, socializing, etc, etc....
I don't think any of those realities ever occurred to him...only that it would be nice for him to make some money, but it would all be at my expense.
Again, IF he could train as I wanted, I would be happy to use him. His going rate was $150.00 per hour per dog...I told him what normal rates for helpers are in this part of the world, and he wasn't keen on it, even though I said I had other people who would bring their dog to work, for more pocket money for him.

I'm probably the only one on this thread that has delivered a dog to LE in past six months, ( besides Duke), and I definitely see the potential of the dog in the video. Not because it's Joan's dog, but because I see much more about the dog than untrained grips or drive level that is also undeveloped.
That's why I commented on both Joan's and BW's dog! I see the raw potential in both dogs in video, the development from there will be greatly influenced by quality of training, trainer, and what venue the dog is being trained for.

Nah duke…my opinion is meaningless because those that have power chose to defend and protect certain people and certain personal relationships for one reason or another. Just look back…I didn’t say a single demeaning thing, yet I got attacked, my dog was called a “robot” and a “miserable tool” and yet I was the one issued a warning and those words were left up for all to see. The attack continues and nothing is done about it. Certain people are allowed to use attacking language and extremely inappropriate words, while others aren’t. My opinion will always matter less because I’m not willing to sink that low and I know that the moment I do…I’d be removed from the forum because I lack the personal relationships necessary to allow me to break forum rules.

A dog that scored higher than most people on here could ever imagine scoring, and at least titled...is demeaned and called names, while another one is raised up as if it's god's gift to biting. I don't know why I ever expect objectivity here. Friends will be friends...people have connections. They've bought dogs from someone, they can't say anything bad about them. It's the law of the land. When it comes to dogs/dog sport/dog forums...never challenge the status quo...fall in line and take it.

have to disagree BW, I know several people that respect you a lot, but they know who you are and what you do, if someone anonymous would critique your video would be different to you also, than if when the critique came from world winner or some other multiple world level competitor for example, if I would comment your tracking video you would probably respond by asking what level I ever competed, its just the way it is.

 

Bw, If you want to be respected, try being respectful. Stop playing victim after you come on here knocking every one who isnt as negative towards me as you deem proper.
Besides, I did complement your new dog, right after I was able to download your video. From now on, however, I will completely ignore every post you make, even when directed at me and my dogs...

Until then, read this....then you might understand, I didnt 'throw away the decoy'. If you are rich, maybe you can take up the slack so the guy can follow his dream.

I would not have a problem with him with just this dog, but my other dog....different story. The guy said he wanted to 'specialize' in personal protection training. It told him I did not want my dog jacked up, but to keep him calm. Didn't happen, so the session was cut off after three bites....that's the dog pictured on previous page.

The guy wasn't keen with only training with two dogs...his aim innitially was to 'train up' some of my dogs and give me three thousand, he gets two, and sell them to a broker who has customers for PPD. I asked who was going to pay me for upkeep of kennel of dogs, ofa, health guarantees, vet bills, my time whelping, raising pups for one or two years, time obedience training them, socializing, etc, etc....

I don't think any of those realities ever occurred to him...only that it would be nice for him to make some money, but it would all be at my expense.

Again, IF he could train as I wanted, I would be happy to use him. His going rate was $150.00 per hour per dog...I told him what normal rates for helpers are in this part of the world, and he wasn't keen on it, even though I said I had other people who would bring their dog to work, for more pocket money for him.

Duke, Critiquing a dog is one thing, I don't care if I know the person or not, or if they are famous or infamous. I'll listen and try to learn.

But the downright inventing whole conversations, as done by your friend, to support a prejudiced/biased stance against a person and their dogs, is not critique nor advice. It's malicious rhetoric meant to demean.

Yes Duke, you're right, unfortunately, my theory is proven right...even after being warned to discontinue the arguing, I get questioned and accused and I have no ability to respond because otherwise the powers that be will come down on me. The person that is doing the confronting doesn’t get warned or told to stop, they can just keep going and going knowing that the people in charge will defend them. I just have to allow myself to get dragged through the mud and accused of things I haven’t done. Like I said…the status quo…no one wants to disrupt it.

I don’t mind a critique no matter who does it. The videos were posted for a reason. I know what’s good and what’s bad about them. If someone hasn’t competed at the level I’m shooting for and therefore calls the work my dog does “robotic” and makes the assumption that my dog is a “miserable tool” just because he’s trained to do something at a level that person can’t even begin to grasp, I would hope that it’s a learning moment for those that read who can then see the difference in not only training ability, but also knowledge and understanding of what is scored in IPO and what it takes to title today. If someone believes that the tracking I posted of my dog is incorrect and wants to argue that point with me, hopefully enough people will be able to chime in and show others that my dog is being trained for what is asked for by judges, and not personal preference “more real” tracking.

Incorrect critiques are very useful in showing the reading public and new people to our sport, who knows what they’re talking about, and who is giving incorrect and false information.

Yes Duke, you're right, unfortunately, my theory is proven right...even after being warned to discontinue the arguing, I get questioned and accused and I have no ability to respond because otherwise the powers that be will come down on me. The person that is doing the confronting doesn’t get warned or told to stop, they can just keep going and going knowing that the people in charge will defend them. I just have to allow myself to get dragged through the mud and accused of things I haven’t done. Like I said…the status quo…no one wants to disrupt it.

I don’t mind a critique no matter who does it. The videos were posted for a reason. I know what’s good and what’s bad about them. If someone hasn’t competed at the level I’m shooting for and therefore calls the work my dog does “robotic” and makes the assumption that my dog is a “miserable tool” just because he’s trained to do something at a level that person can’t even begin to grasp, I would hope that it’s a learning moment for those that read who can then see the difference in not only training ability, but also knowledge and understanding of what is scored in IPO and what it takes to title today. If someone believes that the tracking I posted of my dog is incorrect and wants to argue that point with me, hopefully enough people will be able to chime in and show others that my dog is being trained for what is asked for by judges, and not personal preference “more real” tracking.

Incorrect critiques are very useful in showing the reading public and new people to our sport, who knows what they’re talking about, and who is giving incorrect and false information.

Duke .. I have been giving thought to your comment about a dog biting and the importance to a 'full' bite. So if you would on a gentlemaen basis I write this for you and as usually stated the general readers for a fun conversation.

30+ years ago my mentor and my German friends educated me about the Sch philosophy about a full bite. For those that don't know the reason it becomes important and one of the reasons at trial the judges give ratings , V , G , in bite work is because , again one reason about the bite , is that it is directly related to the Temeprament and Character of the dog. It is an External Expression of the make up of the dog. I repeat that is one reason for desiring a full bite . Right or wrong philosophy .. you decide. But consider :

What is a canine , what makes a dog a dog ? Do they have hands , legs /feet , fists , fingers , knees elbows like humans - ridiculously , NO. But what I listed are all weapons in a human. Most every part of the human body is a weapon , even a head can be used to strike. What does a dog have as a weapon[s] ? Obviously mostly and only , it's teeth , which are used to BITE !! Aside from a canine being 90% nose , they all bite !! Every single breed BITES ! The teeth are also communication nitems too. The front teeth called incisors , the structure is for tearing and cutting - hence the term incisors. The back teeth for crushing ,pulverizing, holding items firmly. Hence the term molars . The best control they have for killing and keeping an animal is biting on the back teeth . When the molars are engaged and the bite is full , a dog bite crushes and the jaws act like a vice ! so what is better : holding something in the front of the teeth meant to tear , which means something can escape from tearing [ that is the teeth are not meant to grasp and to posses and control ] , or when biting having teeth that can hold /posses , crush , destroy , and breaking something via a vice like effect ? You decide. In any biting endeavor LE , sport what is best formthe dog to vanquish , control and destroy an opponent ? Let the reader decide.

So Duke , when we trained state Police Canines , ya .. nobody really cared about "bite" just as long as the dog did the work . My friends in other sports such as French ,Mondio and Belgium Ring .. ya , they didn't make issue of 'the fullness of the bite " either - they just wantes the dog to keep the points . . Oh yes , they had dam good dogs in LE and Ring Sport... some would make any average onlooker / person pee their pants. In those endeavors , all of them I have trained one or another of my GSs. I always always made sure I first taught the dog to utilize the best bite it could , a full , hard , fast bite. . That is what dogs do [ naturally they all bite ] and for defense that is about the only thing they could do to defend, aside run away , which is a defensive behavior ! My police capable GSs and my Ring Sport and Sch capab le GS , they all were taught to maximally use their mouths - I accepted nothing less . If my dog bit you , you were never going to get away , unless you killed it and most would literally break an arm before you could . One time a decoy from Belgium came over to our club. My gs did french ring , leg bites [ full mouth bites]. So he asked if my 12 month GS ever did an arm bite - I said no. So I send the dog up over a barrel and in mid air he bit the arm/bite suit. I outed him off leash from 20 yards away . then platzed him to guard. called him back . The decoy came over to me and said , where did you get this dog, he has a bite - i felt that thrugh the suit and my arm still hurts. The moral : my GS had mastered the best bite mechanics he could, a hard , full and made the decoy pay the price comparing him to those other dogs that bite like chickens , sort to speak.

So Duke , for certain lineages and for police dogs .. well a full bite may not be so critical in their world . But then again , why not a full bite ? isn't that what a dog is and does ? Why have a half a** punch and go fighting when you can have a well thrown , full body
punch going into a fight.
I leave up to the readers to think about ' full bites' ... PS- I agree with a poster on another thread who wrote : " If you don't have PATIENCE" then you shouldn't train [ teach ] a dog. IMOp too . That poster was so so so right.