To Replace or Not - Page 2

well this was the first pup that I have ever had with only one testical. When he was buying the "pet" puppy and gets a discounted price because of this flaw, and knew about it befor the pup left here and was given the option of waiting for another puppy out of another litter and chose not to. I would have to say that most breeders that I have seen contract of, don't do as much as I do. Why would I give a show puppy buyer the same contract as a pet buyer? I give an equal to better contract then I have ever seen most GSD breeder give. I do breed for health and temperment. And I stand behind my dogs, completely. I am not trying to hide behind a contract. Some dogs are pet quality and some are show quality. there is a difference

Thank you for all the replies. As I mentioned in my first post, I have already decided to replace the pup. I did not sell this pup with a contract which I really should have, my fault. But since the owner is a friend who shows my dogs I will replace him. Most contracts for show quality states that the pup will have 2 testicles. Which the pup had at the time of sale and he still has, just 1 has gone back up and I'm hoping it will come back down. My real question was if I AM REQUIRED to replace it. The dog was sold with 2 descended testicles. What the owner does after the dog leaves is not under my control. It is the same thing with temperament. If you sell a pup which show lots of drive, temperament and very outgoing and the new owner doesn't build the drive and work the dog, the drive will be lost. If the same pup is not socialised properly and becomes a cringing coward, whose fault is it? Certainly not the breeders. Same thing with hips. If the new owner overfeeds the pup and does lots of jumps and so on, and then develops HD at a year, whose fault is it? Certainly not the breeder.

I think what hasn't really been adressed here is that the puppy in question had both testicles when he was sold. I don't have that much experience but I believe that according to most contracts a genetic fault would normally be the breeder's responsibility and the puppy should be replaced, but if it the testicle disappeared because of later illness or accident it wouldn't. So as Het mentioned it would first be good to get a vet's opinion as to why the testicle disappeared or whether it might come down again. Of course this might be hard to determine, I am not sure.

Agreed - certainly without a contract you're not REQUIRED to do anything - and it had two at one time so perhaps as someone said - it may come back, or can be brought back down. Some people who are awaiting the second one to drop have waited way past 7 months (but unfortunately, they never got the matched set they were looking for. Hey, your friend can go get a plastic one implanted and still show it at GSD specialties -- it can stand next to the dog with the false teeth -- nobody will care. We don't try to produce these things - they just happen. You don't OWN your friend anything, and if he likes the dog for himself, he should just live with it. "Life is not fair". Worse things could happen. and HET is okay with two conracts -- pets are a different story -- especially now with limited registrations etc. and when I did breed, I required pets to be altered - so if there was the occasional 1 undescended - it din't matter much, since they were coming out anyway -- A pet dog - excuse me - companion -- does not need low hangers to be a good pet.

JHunter wrote: "My real question was if I AM REQUIRED to replace it. The dog was sold with 2 descended testicles." Just a point of fact here: if you had sold this puppy as breeding/conformation show quality, then yes--you would be required to replace him, because he does not live up to that stipulation. While it is always preferable to have a *written* contract, be aware that verbal contracts can be enforced as well, especially in small claims court--which is likely where something like this would be filed, were push to come to shove. JHunter also wrote: "What the owner does after the dog leaves is not under my control." That would apply in the case of something the owner was able to influence, but whether or not the testicles remain in the scrotum does *not* fall into that category. There's nothing--short of surgery-- that anyone can do to make a testicle recede...not even 'an untreated infection', as someone else suggested. (That could cause testicular atrophy, but it won't make the testicle recede from the scrotum.) It is delayed closure of the inguinal ring that allows a 'traveling testicle' to move back up into the abdomen, and typically those testicles only do so because the vas deferens is not of sufficient length to permit the testicle to remain in the scrotum at all times. BTW, same would go for a pup having a scissors-bite, for example: even if the bite was good when you sold it, if it goes bad as the dog continues to develop, it's not the owner's fault, and it makes the dog less than show quality...so if it had been sold as such, a refund or replacement would be in order if the owner so desired.

Cheers Hunter, Hexe is correct in all respects. Sorry Pineridge - your comment about it being correct at point of sale doesn't really apply without a contract - I doubt if it would even apply with a contract unless such eventuality was specifically allowed for. As matter of interest, ever seen signs in parking stations stating 'all care taken, but no responsibility ...' etc. Meaningless! There's always an implied duty of care. Common law principle established over centuries, and it applies to all products sold, is that the item is fit for its agreed upon intended purpose. The rest is question of definition and evidence: verbal, written, or as assumable from circumstance. Hexe notion of proper contracts is great - otherwise detail all exchange in LETTERS. Why capital letters? I constantly see in this forum, I said this and he said that, or I emailed him etc. The instance there appears possibility of real dispute, resort to properly prepared letters, and insist other party does the same. If they insist on telephone and email, simply say you like them to reply to your last letter before proceeding, and in order to avoid future confusion. Circumstances differ in each case of course, so you have to play it by ear. And this what meant to be a couple of words only!

Not for nothing, but at least in the US courts, emails are considered an acceptable form of documentation if they are presented with all headers, sender and recipient info, subject lines and signatures or closures intact. :^) I must agree with Peter that the *very* best form of agreement is a detailed document that is typewritten and signed with the original signatures of all involved parties, however.

Hi Hexe! You floor me with all that you know and are capable of sharing. I have heard that it is common that what has been described in this thread (dog has 2 testicles, one testicle recedes after the pup is sold), is also "apparent" in other breeds such as the Boston Terrier and the Doberman. Was led to understand that in some cases, some manhandling of the dogs to force the testicle to remain in the scortum is performed. I had to think of the poor animal as the owner tries to stretch the "vas deferens" as you so mentioned above. In a case close to home, a show quality Boston was sold, became a mono orchid, and then the other testicle did drop without any "manhandling". Also knew a pup sold as pet quality because he was a mono orchid, where the vet successfully and permanently managed to descend the second testicle. Can this be true? Or am I just filled with lot of legends and no facts? Sunny

Hi Hexe, Emails would I think be accepted anywhere for what they're worth but, what I really mean is that letters are not only what you might call accepted business practice, but allow you to properly organise the points that matter - partly a question of being professional, I suppose. And, imagine you and I verbally agree on number of issues to do with pup you are selling me, and you then send me letter incorporating all those points, and I similarly reply with 'yes, that's fine' well, there's your contract. (Or say, for some subsequent alteration to an original more formal agreement) Regards. Hi Sunny. I might as well note for others on Board the painfully obvious: for a binding contract to exist, it doesn't, as such, need to be in writing at all. There's a contract every time you walk into store to buy some tooth paste. Emails can become awfully messy and contradictory, if buyer doesn't have, well ... let as say same level of comprehension as seller. (trying to be tactful,Hexe!)

Sunny wrote: "I have heard that it is common that what has been described in this thread (dog has 2 testicles, one testicle recedes after the pup is sold), is also "apparent" in other breeds such as the Boston Terrier and the Doberman." Yes, the problem occurs in all breeds of dogs, and in mixed breeds as well. In fact, it occurs in all *mammals*--undescended testicles show up in cattle, horses, cats, people...it's just a basic quirk of nature. In animals, some breeding partners tend to produce it more frequently than others; I doubt that there's been much investigation to that end as far as humans are concerned. ;^) "In a case close to home, a show quality Boston was sold, became a mono orchid, and then the other testicle did drop without any "manhandling". Also knew a pup sold as pet quality because he was a mono orchid, where the vet successfully and permanently managed to descend the second testicle. Can this be true? Or am I just filled with lot of legends and no facts?" Oh, it happens, Sunny, to be sure--all three of the scenarios you mention. It's not unusual to hear that a breeder told a buyer to 'gently massage the testicle' down into the scrotum in an attempt to salvage a pup's show and breeding eligibility...and it certainly is possible to have the problem corrected surgically. In the latter situation, however, there's a good chance the surgically retrieved testicle will have had its ability to generate sperm destroyed as a result of exposure to the core body temperature while it was in the abdominal cavity. The question of the ethics in thwarting nature's intentions, either via manual efforts or surgical technique, hangs over those practices--genetically, the dog still carries the coding for cryptorchidism, and it will rear its head in at least some of his offspring, eventually. As for the stories of pups being sold as pet quality because the testicles didn't seem to be staying dropped, only to have the situation rectify itself as the dog matured, there's no doubt but that this has occured from time to time. It's no different than a pup being sold as pet quality because the bite was slightly off, or it appeared that it was going to be over- or undersized, only to have the mature animal turn out to be completely correct--and usually stunning, no less. That's just the way it seems to go sometimes! :^)