I want to pose this question to Helpers - Page 3

Technically, the helper does not "agitate" or "stimulate" the dog at all during a trial and in fact is to remain neutral in presence.  The testing of the dog’s nerve is through the pressure applied during the drives (the physical power and control of the dog by the helper and the intensity of the stick hits) and the threat communicated during the attacks (attack out of the back transport and long-bite attack)  There should be no stimulation or agitation by the helper at all - the dogs should bring the fight themselves.  Interestingly enough, it is usually the stronger dogs who have issue with this, many, who don't feel challenged by the neutral helper and  lack the intensity they would show with a "more worthy foe."   A helper is expected to have “presence,” which seems to be combination of calm confidence, stature and bearing, along with physical power (shown during the active portions such as escape, transports and drives) – but again, is expected to be neutral and not incite the dog to the fight, but to allow the dog to push the encounter.

-Calvin

 

 QUOTE: Interestingly enough, it is usually the stronger dogs who have issue with this, many, who don't feel challenged by the neutral helper and  lack the intensity they would show with a "more worthy foe." 

Once again, we hit the threshold issue.

Just for shits and giggles, how many of you would consider that all dogs have the same amount of prey drive, but the varying thresholds makes them appear to have more or less ???

I have been thinking of this lately, and it is sorta the same arguement I have with rating a dogs intellegence, as the dogs on top, are more willing participants than the rest, so I think they are measuring the willingness to work, more than actual intellegence. 

Just curious.

Would you explain the threshold idea as it applies to prey drive?  I'd don't fully understand your question, but is seems like a great topic.

-Calvin

I get lost in terminology at times.  I've often wondered that about "defense" and "prey" and "fight".  I'm starting to think it is more about "thresholds" than "drive" a lot of times.  But i'm not smart enough or experienced enough to convince myself or anyone else that what I'm seeing is real, cause I still miss half the stuff I should be seeing.  Hopefully one day i'm experienced enough to know.  

with prey drive, I can see it as a drive and threshold scenerio.  I mean some dogs obviously have it and you can make a half assed movement with your hand and they're going nuts for the movement, others take more work to varying degrees to illicit the desired behavior i guess.  in the end you can get them to do the same things, but some take more to illicit that drive.  

and some others won't chase shit you want them to, no tugs, no balls dont' chase blowing leaves or sticks, but if they see a squirrel your fricken arm is torn off as they give chase.  Obviously they have prey drive, and what you're doing isn't stimulating it or crossing the threshold.  and still other dogs would be dead in week if they didn't get fed by their owners cause they have no desire to do anything or give chase to anything regardless if it means life or death.  

So I see it as a function of drive and threshold, or maybe I don't understand your question and just sound like an idiot.

I dont have enough knowledge to answer any questions only ask them.
But I am excited that we have a guest helper coming to training tonight and I will ask alot of questions of him.

Jeff to your shits and giggles questions.....

how many of you would consider that all dogs have the same amount of prey drive, but the varying thresholds makes them appear to have more or less ???

Again I think I know what I see from our own dogs...we have 3 with all different drives and a customers dogs
and they definitly have different amounts of prey drive. BUT it is IMHO the way things are presented to them to
will make the drives appear maybe higher or lower..starting to confuse myself. lol
BUT I do know that they all defintly have different drives.....but then does that go to breeding? 
And of course there is an art which I am learning what is the difference in the drives is that prey or aggression? 
 

 Quote: So I see it as a function of drive and threshold, or maybe I don't understand your question and just sound like an idiot

The best I can explain it is that a dogs threshold is what allows him to come into drive. If the threshold is low, then they go right into drive. If it is too high, they don't respond at all. That is why I am thinking that thresholds are the important thing, not the drive, as it is activated by what degree of threshold they have.

Quote: Again I think I know what I see from our own dogs...we have 3 with all different drives and a customers dogs 
and they definitly have different amounts of prey drive. BUT it is IMHO the way things are presented to them to
will make the drives appear maybe higher or lower..starting to confuse myself. lol

What you are looking at is different thresholds, but the accepted term is "drive". The way that things are presented to them stimulates the dogs threshold differently, so it appears to be higher or lower.

Defining drive is fuckled, because the deeper you get into the description, the murkier the water gets. Sooooo much easier to just talk thresholds, as that is what you are really looking at, not drive.

I had a GSD that had tons of drive, but her thresholds were so weird. She would chase a ball until you killed her, as I nearly found out. However, the decoy had to work his ass off to get her to bite. She loved the tug on a string, and was very serious about catching it. I bred her to a dog with lower thresholds, and as I figured, she produced doorknobs.

So there is some info for you for free. No payments necessary, no need to fly in some "expert" helper to work your dog and not really tell you what or why the dog did so well. LOL