I want to pose this question to Helpers - Page 2

A trial is first and foremost a breed suitability test. A score of 210 is still a pass for the recreational enthusiasts. Only a few can, desire or will be able to compete at the top in sport. There is room for everyone. I would like the Fred Lanting gun test applied though. That is when you place a gun to the Judges ear and say "Judge it like it is."  No more breed problems that I could think of.

In a perfect world, helpers putting pressure on dogs and running them off the field would end bad breeding.
 
However, in our world the breeding of mediocre/poor dogs happens everyday.
 
Is a helper putting pressure on a club dog gonna stop this NO!
 
So we should shut down the hobby competitors/the clubbies that are just in it for fun?
They know they are mediocre they know their dogs are just ok BUT they love the sport…
Maybe they can’t afford the time or the dog to compete, at a national level or even a regional level???
 
At a recent seminar, Wallace Payne made a good point know where you and your dog are and accept it.
Are you a clubbie, a regional or world competitor? Accept it, embrace it and work with what you have.  
 
I am only going by what I have seen…at some trials the clubbies are green handlers and there dogs are just ok but they are having fun. Do they get 300s NO but The Judges just smile….…so maybe they don’t score as hard at a local club as they would at a National Event.
At the Regionals or Nationals they would fail but at a club event they get a 225….
 
I am not saying give it away but to run dogs off the field at a local club is not fun for anyone......
 
There should be more pressure on buyers and breeders to check where the titled dogs got their titles and their scores!

I am new to the sport but from all the events I have been to in 2 years I can see how certain Judges score etc…and clearly there is a difference from competing at a Club event vs. World’s etc…
 
I am not a helper just live with one!
 
 

All helper work in a trial should answer the question. "Does this dog deserve this title." It does not matter if it is club or nationals the question remains the same.

I think we're forgetting the most important thing about trail work, 1) THE HELPER WORKS FOR THE JUDGE!. If the judge says test the dog, test the dog. If he says not so much, then not so much. Rememeber the judge is looking for something in particular as he watches the dogs go thru the trail. However there is a distinct difference between club, regional, national,  and the world championship. the caliber of dog is different, the judging is different, and the skill level of the helper is different as well.

terence

In protection work do the helpers sometimes go overboard?.
sometimes yes.  usually seen with those that are new to trial work

Are there fixed routines or rules/ drill of agitation work in different exercises?
yes.  set forth by the rules, judged by the judge,
 
Does the judge define how much and what EXACTLY stimulus to be given to agitate the dog?
trial work is just that, trial work.  you dont get to stimulate or agitate the dog.  you follow the rules.

Can one go overbaord with the agitation routine. Fi so what effect does it have on the dog?
yes a helper can do to much.  it is up to the judge to inform the helper they are doing so, and instruct them to do correct trial helper work.    if the helper knows the dog is weak, they can help the dog in many ways,,let the dog pull on the sleeve to feel stronger etc.  lock eyes with a dog and they may not out when told,, good way to make someone fail.

of course this is a simplified list.  i have heard, and been taught many things to help a dog and warned of the things not to do.  

trial work is trial work.  should it be different between local, reg., national, world?  not in my book.   

john

 For me, and just me, if I go on the field and within the rules the helper decoy or whatever can run my dog, then I am fine with it. However, I don't think I am such a bad judge of a dogs worth that it will happen, I would hope that I would see it before it occured. However, if I was wrong, I would like to know about it. Everyone can be susceptable to kennel blindness, or just not see what their dog is.

I try hard not to have that problem. LOL Many, many people lament about the breed and it's downfall and what not, but this is something that should be stuck to. If you can run a dog, then you need to run it. Is it really gonna shatter the "clubbies" ego so bad that they will quit ???? 

If you are just in this for fun, then what would that matter ????

Jeff I agree with you if you can run him off than do it.

Thanks for the clairty.

Perhaps what I think I see at different events is just my perception.

Personally I think you present a dog as the judge instructs you to.  I'm not an old timer, but it didn't take me long to realize that a title is just a title.  They aren't all equal and I would never breed or buy a dog based on titles.  All the people I know breeding test the dogs themselves before approval anyway, as should anybody breeding dogs.