DM and breeding. - Page 3

Pedigree Database


by maofryan on 16 September 2020 - 21:09

DM is simple autosomal recessive. If we don't breed carriers, the trait will disappear. I believe that is our responsibility as breeders.

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 16 September 2020 - 21:09


"If she was mine, I'd take that dog and look for a male with a big ol strong jaw."

in developing dog's heavy bone base it doesn't work that way.

b.t.w. why do you need high hunt? GSD never envisioned as hunt breed. for that was developed lot of other, specialized breeds.

we are not talking about heavy bone base when we are talking "big ol' strong jaw". Strong jaw is not the same as a heavy boned dog. 

Also, you need hunt drive for detection and search and rescue. We are not talking about dogs that go and critter all day every day. We are talking about the will to hunt for a ball/tug/food/odor. It's an important part of the breed that is getting neglected and lost due tracking no longer being actual tracking.


I'm actually quite mindboggled about some of these questions. This is literally what selective breeding is.

Definition of selective breeding


: the process of modifying the characteristics of living things especially to enhance one or more desirable traits by selection in breeding controlled by humans

After about three years of selective breeding, their company, Cavendish Game Birds, was able to deliver quail that consistently dressed out to seven or eight ounces.— Warren Schultz

Selective breeding continues in an attempt to enhance the human use of this economic plant against a background of disappointingly low rubber content …— John M. Miller and Ralph A. Backhaus

Fixed through selective breeding, traits could vanish over several generations if people became careless in choosing their dogs' mates.— Mark Derr

— called also artificial selection

by jettasmom on 16 September 2020 - 21:09

@maof.... where is the proof to that and or study stating what you said is true? I prefer facts.

by ValK on 16 September 2020 - 22:09

jaws is a part of dog's bone structure and it involve same process of formation as rest of bones.

"Fixed through selective breeding, traits could vanish over several generations if people became careless in choosing their dogs' mates.— Mark Derr"

very good quotation. "careless in choosing their dogs' mates" applicable to your belief on how to improve dog's jaws :)

thanks for clarification of your view and perception about hunt drive.

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 16 September 2020 - 22:09

You can Google DM and very easily hit the UC Davis Website for Veterinary Medicine where it's actually stated that the SOD1 gene is an autosomal recessive gene.

If you want studies, you can also easily google them such as this(click) one, where the conclusion is to breed it out:

Conclusions and Clinical Importance

We conclude that the SOD1:c.118A allele is widespread and common among privately owned dogs whereas the SOD1:c.52T allele is rare and appears to be limited to Bernese Mountain Dogs. We also conclude that breeding to avoid the production of SOD1:c.118A homozygotes is a rational strategy.

These responses are actually in stark contrast to the topic where Epillepsie is being discussed. In that topic I was almost shredded to pieces because I said if a dog has produced ONE single dog out of I don't know how many and there is only a 2% chance for a dog to get the disease, I am not sure I'd wash that dog (IF it was an exceptional dog but even then, I could probably find another dog with the same qualities).  But here we are talking about a 50% chance of having at risk dogs when breeding at risk to carriers and it's perfectly okay? We are talking about an entire litter that has a 50% chance to be at risk to develope actual DM. I'm seriously not understanding the math here. How is this any different?

As long as the integrity of the breed, to what I believe is right for my breeding program, is not compromised, I will breed with emphasize to get clear dogs. I don't give a ratsass whether or not "at risk" dogs might live a healthy life or never get it. The point is to breed for healthy dogs. Are the tests without fault? No. I've had a faulty result once but that doesn't mean I won't test for it and utilize the results. Even OFA makes mistakes, that doesn't mean we stop sending in our radiographs to make sure we have healthy hips.

Nobody is saying wash all carriers, or all at risk dogs. As long as you are smart about it, you can absolutely utilize them. But if I can breed for a clear dog without compromising the integrity of my dogs, I'm going to breed clear dogs.

And btw. I actually have carriers in my breeding program. Both my breeding females are DM clear, Champ is DM clear, Athos is a carrier. Go figure that the one Son he has, that I would want to use,  is DM clear but is a one nut wonder.

I wonder how people would react if I bred a known cryptorchid... or a dog with DJD1 and boarderline hips. Man, I'd be burned at the stake for not washing that dog out. The double standard sometimes is unreal...

by duke1965 on 17 September 2020 - 00:09

BM, you are going with feelings, a carrier out of carrier X clear, is exactly the same as a carrier out of a positive dog mated with clear, ,

Id rather have a great dog that is a carrier, than an average dog that is clear, as DM can be bred out easily, it will be hard to breed great dogs out of average ones

@ jettasmom, I bred to a at risk dog, I didnot know it at the time of breeding, but im very happy with my offspring that are all carrier, if bred to clear they will also produce clear dogs as well so dont take that long to go from at risk to clear, without throwing away any quality material

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 17 September 2020 - 00:09

No, I'm not going with feelings. You are clearly not reading what I'm saying. If I have TWO dogs that are of the same quality, I'm going with clear. If I have an exceptional carrier or at risk, I'd breed to that too but only to clear. There hasn't been a carrier or at risk dog so exceptional that I'd breed them together.

I'm not stacking my deck against myself either. It's really not rocket science. The genepool isn't "That" small as people think it is.

JFC it's not rocket science. Seriously, where have I said I'd wash a carrier or an at risk dog?
I'm talking about when I have TWO OF THE SAME CALIBER I'm going with clear. Why would I go with a carrier if I can have a clear instead?

Seriously, are ya'll for real?

Did anyone put anything in your tea? Is this for real? Is there even a question to take a clear dog if the dog is as good as the other one?

I can't even...

by duke1965 on 17 September 2020 - 01:09

LOL, the genepool IS that small, really, hard enough to find any decent dog to breed with, as you very well know

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 17 September 2020 - 02:09

The actual genepool isn't small. We have enough diversity throughout the world to breed. It's kept artificially small with dishonesty and willful ignorance and selling great genetics to the highest bidder where you can't reach it any longer because SV prohibits breeding with frozen semen.

In America, we have an incredible genepool, the issue is, that the clubs are closed and you either don't know about the dogs, or don't get to actually watch them. People also don't disclose issues, play facebook favorites and crap like that. It's not that the genepool isn't there.

by duke1965 on 17 September 2020 - 04:09

if we exclude pet level and club level sports, not a lot is actually out there anymore, sure there are some greats here and there that almost nobody knows about, but not a lot


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