by Prager on 14 December 2018 - 05:12
by joanro on 14 December 2018 - 07:12
Gustav, we all are cognizant the parents 'aren't going to pass environmental induced effects through sperm and eggs,'
and obviously they arent going to pass their good hip conformation in the sperm and eggs, either...not if the litter is raised on slick surface and fat as butcher hogs while the bone of the hip joints are forming no matter how many littermates of the clear parents are also clear.
but they are going to pass sloppy ligaments and lack of muscle...same as a holstien does not have as much muscle as an Angus, no matter how much you feed her or excersize her.....now add to that birthing the pups in a swimming pool, for example, and the pups most likely will have developmental hd....even if every dog in the pedigree are hd clear. Because lack of muscle does not help the pup to overcome adverse environment while the bone of the hips are forming. That is key.
So, Gustav, if the littermates of all the dogs in the pedigree have hd, but the parents don't yet they produce hd litters, then maybe it does not matter if the parents are hd clear. How about looking at the conformation of the parents who have siblings with hd...or look at how the litters of the parents were raised that so many had hd... Better yet, don't breed dogs who's littermates all have hd.
by Hundmutter on 14 December 2018 - 08:12
And it isn't to say that is wrong, anyway. There are other factors to consider in the choice of breeding dogs than whether HD is present in the siblings; or even, arguably, whether the actual dog to be used for breeding has less-than-wonderful X rays. Its all checks & balances.
But Malcolm Willis's work in the UK over 20+ years DID chart a gradual reduction in the high levels of HD in the breed (and other breeds), the more dogs were X rayed and scored and breeding with poor hips was avoided. Since that is undeniable, the chances are that if ALL dogs were X rayed and NO dogs were bred that had scores greater than that breed's 'Mean', we would see HD almost eradicated, given enough time.
by joanro on 14 December 2018 - 09:12
Hund: the chances are that if ALL dogs were X rayed and NO dogs were bred that had scores greater than that breed's 'Mean', we would see HD almost eradicated, given enough time.
Me: And what desirable traits would also be eliminated?
by Gustav on 14 December 2018 - 13:12
Again, I have said there are definitely environmental elements involved in HD, but I have found that genetic probability is the strongest element in achieving functional working hips.
by Baerenfangs Erbe on 14 December 2018 - 15:12
by Anne5928 on 14 December 2018 - 16:12
by joanro on 14 December 2018 - 18:12
I was not asking about "mild HD"....what I was talking about is a pedigree where every dog in the pedigree ( im talking both dogs used for breeding) have good to excellent hips and they still produce hd....selection is not going to solve the problem then if it is all genetics. Because for ten or twelve generations hd free dogs are still producing hd and that includes thousands and thousands of dogs tested, if it was only genetic, it would be eliminated by now.
And Gustav, your comment that out of all clear dogs in a pedigree, they all have littermates that have hd is not what I have experienced in my limited 15 years of breeding only 26 litters and testing random fifty percent of all those progeny, (but some litters I tested all of them), I have had only one pup with hd. The dam had two other litters by two different dogs with no hd in any of them....in fact, littermates of the HD pup, has one OFA excellent....so out of 6 in that litter, one had severe HD, one has Excellent, and the other four good. But the little pup that had hd got jumped on by the dam when she was only four weeks old. I saw it happen. She had developmental hd but no one would know that if I had not seen her get spread eagled by the dam. Is that also genetic hd that the rest of the litter are going to pass on? No! It is not.
by joanro on 14 December 2018 - 18:12
by duke1965 on 14 December 2018 - 18:12
have to disagree with that way of thinking gustav, for multiple reasons,
first, you dont breed the genepackage from your dogs siblings, you breed your dog, and with current outcrosslevels, genepackages of littermates are way different,
second, one have to look at each individual case of bad hips on its own, as of why its bad, looking at actual xrays will tell you more than looking at scorecards
third, I personally know one(linebred) male that had several littermates with bad hips for various reasons, male in case was hips and elbows clear, he bred close to 90 females, and majority of first,second and third generation after him have perfect hips till today
I personally think that we have to look at each individual xray to see what is going on, as there are way to many variables, kibble/puppyfood being one major contributer IMO,
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