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by apple on 04 December 2018 - 17:12

Why is it a bad idea to pair strong aggression with high prey drive? It sounds like your comments refer to the type of dog you prefer rather than assessing individual dogs by the different drives and traits they bring to the training. Good dogs come in a variety of packages and can support a variety of objectives. You have to adjust the training to each individual dog.

by Gustav on 04 December 2018 - 20:12

I would rarely breed strong aggression with high prey drive. It would definitely be an exception and not something I would routinely do. Of course to me,  breedings require compensation and balance....I fail to see this traveling in that direction except in rarity!

by ValK on 05 December 2018 - 03:12

Why is it a bad idea to pair strong aggression with high prey drive? It sounds like your comments refer to the type of dog you prefer rather than assessing individual dogs by the different drives and traits they bring to the training. Good dogs come in a variety of packages and can support a variety of objectives. You have to adjust the training to each individual dog.

I don't seen stubbornness correlated with civil aggression. There are dogs that are stubborn that are civil and dogs that are not stubborn that are civil.
Reaction to excitatory factors is so vague, it has no meaning to me. A dog can be very playful and not at all civilly aggressive.
Recovery from stress has more to do with nerves than being civil.
A dog being independent does not predict if he will be civil. It simply means he is independent.​

of course i refer to preferred by me the type of dog in retrospective onto OP. 
and sure, good dogs can come in variety of packaged for different applicable into practical use purpose.
for the rest... without noticing, you well mirrored present trend in breeding - narrow concentration on selected particular trait, without much concern about side effect of rejected ones. just because someone found them to be unimportant these traits don't disappears in every produced dog.

I fail to see this traveling in that direction except in rarity

if that remark to my post, then i didn't say it is easy. instead i did say level of traits are satisfactory, which means - some are more pronounced, some less but all should be in margin area where higher value could compensate lower.
i can't speak breeding because never been involved with it but i can speak of results of breeding and seems i do have more experience than many members in here, in regard of different approaches to breeding in commercial and non commercial environments.
that experience allows me to do comparison and come to conclusions.

by duke1965 on 05 December 2018 - 08:12

there are allways different packages of drives, not everybody is willing or capable of working with higher levels of any drive, I dont think it is problem to have high prey and high civil agression in one dog, but high prey, high posessivenes and dominance together might be a problem for many to work with

Just bought a dog back from my breeding, who was trained in KNPV and has that package and he was to much for them to work with, also one of my clients in USA has a german shepherd with that package, that is hard to place in a department with first time handlers, for example, still these are really social dogs.


I can see why people choose not to breed these types, or not to do points sport with these types of dogs, but think it is important to keep these higher levels available for breeding, also as a package

as for topic, these dogs dont allways have high cicil agression, as that comes from another place within the dog

by apple on 05 December 2018 - 12:12

I would say your point is also an issue in the breed. The GSD has become so popular, but the market demands for a challenging dog, that might actually be the better working dog in the right hands, is low. Dominance in a dog with strong forward aggression can be very challenging, especially if the dog is sold as a green dog. As for sport, I think these type of dogs are better suited for KNPV training and to go on to police work with further training. But again, KNPV is limited to people in Holland. These dogs are not well matched for IPO, so again the demand is low. That is why I think the Dutch tend to produce some of the better dogs. They have a sport that is set up for police work that doesn't demand so much precision and isn't so focused on points/podium. They also have some handlers with generations of dealing with this type of dog. I do think, like many things in the working dog world, KNPV is also being watered down and the old style dogs have become less popular.

by BlackMalinois on 05 December 2018 - 13:12



Apple don,t believe everything on the www

You will only learn about KNPV visit some clubs talk with some handlers,decoys about malinois
dutch shepherd and GSD and see them work for real not only videos this make some thing s very clear.

Have seen the last practise day GSD live in Holland and the quality from GSD IMO dissapointed
from most of the youngsters.

Can find easy 10 great quality X malinois/dutch shepherds than one great Quality GSD
this is my personal observation and not only males also the females !!!

Also the FCI malinois today can find good quality males and females in KNPV

I,m a big fan from the oldschool GSD , find quallity breeders who produce them is not easy today. ..



by bladeedge on 05 December 2018 - 13:12

B.M . Do you have a dog you own to show us what you mean . I'm new here and have looked back at some older Post's to see who is talking dogs and who is dog handler who is s trainer . your Post's that I've read seems a lot of talk and other people video's. You only seem to come here to take a pop off the GS
I might be wrong as only read a few from some members . I'd like to see some videos if you have any ?? Thanks in advance .

by apple on 05 December 2018 - 13:12

I was actually referring to KNPV lines of Mals and DS's.  I have read Dick van Leeuwan saying he sees the watering down of KNPV and the dogs, but he still prefers the oldstyle, challenging DS's that are no so prey driven, but dominant and socially aggressive.  A very different type of dog than, for example, Mike Suttle prefers to breed for.

by Juno on 05 December 2018 - 15:12

I agree from what I have seen on videos and read about that the dogs participating in KNPV seem to be better suited for police work and work on high prey. What I have not seen is real pressure on the dog, in most cases the decoys don’t really fight the dog the only time (that I can see) is when they hit the dog with the stick while charging the dog, the objects thrown on the ground, and the yelling. I maybe way off, but just from my own personal experience with my dog - he feels very little if no pressure at all with stick hits, yelling and charging decoy, or with objects thrown at him, actually it amps him up. The only time I saw him under some sort of pressure (temporarily) was when we did the exercise with him tied to the fence as described earlier. He is not handler aggressive (towards me) but will fight me for his toys and very reluctant to give it up - that maybe a combination of his possessiveness and my inadequacy as a handler - not sure but he has always been like that. On the other hand, anyone else trying to take his toy away from him WILL be met with aggression and be bit - learned it the hard way.

by duke1965 on 05 December 2018 - 16:12

seems like a good idea BM, show us some dogs from your breeding, or which you titled, or some people in KNPV that you are helping out with your wisdom maybe ?? any videos of you ??


there will allways be more mixes and malis in KNPV than German shepherds , that is just how it is, has nothing to do with availability of good GSD, secondly, most GSD material in holland comes from IPO stock, where mixes come from KNPV mixes, selected on suitability for KNPV

third, malicrosses cost about 350 euro give or take, GSD from some breeders are 1250 euros, so that helps a bit too

and last but not least, you wont find a lot of GSD with same speed on stick attack as the high prey mixes, and that is what its all (alone) about for many




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