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by duke1965 on 30 November 2018 - 17:11

people writing, that civil simply means a dog will bite without equipment is a big misunderstanding or misrepresentation of Civil, this is generally the problem with people who cannot read dogs and/or understand dogs and therefor try to define things in one simple phrase, it is not just as simple as that.

some extreme high prey/possesive dogs will bite anything just to have something, they bite without equipment, but are definately not civil, these dogs are not to be confused with sporty prey dogs, who will only bite prey they are motivated on, some KNPV lines will bring such extreme high prey/possesive dogs

civil dogs also come in different variations of drive levels, I would tend to use suspicious or responsive to treath, earlyer, than bite without equipment, as that is only small part of civil dog

anyway,to explain full range on computer writing is almost impossible

by apple on 30 November 2018 - 18:11

I understand what you are saying, but the commonly accepted understanding of civil is simply a dog that bites without equipment. And I think I understand what you mean about some KNPV Mals,X's, DS's that will bite anything without making prey to stimulate them. But technically, I still consider those dogs civil. It seems you are saying you want to see more traits in a dog before you consider the dog to be civil, such as mistrust, social aggression, lower threshold for defense, sharpness, etc. Many of the KNPV dogs that will bite anything are often super social dogs and it is very difficult for them to see anything as a threat. Sounds like you consider a civil dog as being more balanced in prey and defense and more aloof or not so social. Now we are talking about GSDs vs. Mals. My understanding is that many KNPV handlers with Mals/DS's do not want a dog that works in defense because they believe that type of dog is less confident and more prone to flight or avoidance. I have heard one KNPV handler saying he wants his dogs working in fight drive not defense. Michael Ellis coined a good term for fight drive which he calls competitive aggression. It is not triggered by the dog being suspicious or perceiving a threat, but rather, when more pressure is put on the dog, the dog fights back with more pressure. There is less stress involved and more enjoyment of the fight or anger. But again, that is something you tend to see in the Mal/DS more so than in the GSD.

by duke1965 on 30 November 2018 - 18:11

apple, when a dog has good prey/posessiveness, and you fight the dog for that prey, the drive will rise, same as when you have a ball without rope, or a ball on rope and pull it, the drive will go up when you pull the rope, there is nothing macho or hardcore about that

many KNPV and IPO people want prey only, as it is better trainable,controlable and better for points,full calm grip bogus etc, fast on long bite etc.

when they say dog working in defence is less confident, it shows they have no clue what they are talking about, as dog working in prey or defence alone, tells you nothing about the courage, hardness, dominance etc of said dog, 

go compare  a confident strong dog working in defence, against a nervy weak dog working in prey, and as you see the endresult will be more defined by the question if the dog is strong, confident, nervy or weak, than which drive it is working in at that time

furthermore, it has nothing to do with breed, other than some breedspecific elements on each side, mali or cross can work both in prey and/or defence, same as a GSD


by apple on 30 November 2018 - 18:11

But a high prey, high fight dog can have courage, hardness and/or dominance. It does not necessarily mean the dog is weak or nervy. It just means the dog's motivation to bite is different. And not all dogs working in defense are less confident, but some are.

by duke1965 on 30 November 2018 - 19:11

certainly, a high prey dog can be hard strong and couragious, same as a low preydrive dog,

as courage, hardness and dominance are not connected to prey or defence alone

by Vito Andolini on 01 December 2018 - 01:12

It isn't one or the other. On a scale of 1-10 in all characteristics. That doesn't mean a dog that's a 10 in prey is a 1 in defense, or vise versa. Because of training and handlers, some things are utilized, exposed, promoted, etc. You can have a dog that is high in both.
Sometimes this board reminds me of something Raino Fluegge said, "Does anyone here have a good dog?"

by Juno on 01 December 2018 - 14:12

I was reading this topic which really drove home last night when we trained at our club. I think I finally understood what Duke, Hans, Valk, and Gustav have been talking about as far as working a dog in civil vs prey and then you can see the true character of a dog. Last night we were in a brand new field and we tied up my dog to a fence and I walked away, then decoy approached him and just walked up to him without agitating but just a slow menacing walk and look. I could see that my dog was a little unsure, as this was new, he was tied up, I was not there, there was someone filming him with a camera and flashlight, there were people on the other side of the fence. He got stronger as the session went on, I am glad he never backed down, no hackles, tail still up and wagging, but you could see the stress. After this session we did the regular prey work by sending him on a long bite and you could see the difference as to how relaxed he was. I am sure a very experienced handler or breeder can see it in a young puppy but this was eye opening to me as to how much pressure gets put on a dog during civil work vs prey and if the dog is not strong or balanced will collapse. My 2 cents.

by emoryg on 01 December 2018 - 16:12

Duke hope you get more videos of that puppy as he matures. I always enjoyed watching the progress.

Apple, your dog too. I think it was you who posted some videos of a promising young dog that I enjoyed watching.

I also enjoyed reading the different comments of what a civil dog is. I think along the lines of, a dog in fight can never take flight.  Despite how ugly it got, I needed him to be the aggressor no matter what the criminal was doing to him.  

by Juno on 01 December 2018 - 17:12

emoryg, I believe it was my dog you are referring to above

by Jessejones on 01 December 2018 - 19:12

Emoryg says:
I think along the lines of, a dog in fight can never take flight.  Despite how ugly it got, I needed him to be the aggressor no matter what the criminal was doing to him.  

Perfect comment in a nutshell.

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