How difficult is it to breed for both looks/structure and working ability? - Page 1

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by xPyrotechnic on 29 August 2021 - 09:08


Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 29 August 2021 - 09:08

From and interview with Koos Hassing of Tiekerhook kennels:

 

Alfred Hahn, from the kennel “vom Busecker Schloss", was very clear. He told me: “Koos, if you want to improve the German Shepherd Dog, and I know that is your goal, then consider this for the future. One can improve the anatomy of the German Shepherd in only a few generations. But to improve, temperament, character, and the necessary working abilities take much much longer. Good males will always be around, so focus on the quality of your brood bitches!”

In my opinion, the pure truth, spoken by a very experienced breeder and Körmeister


Rik

by Rik on 29 August 2021 - 10:08

I am going at this from the perspective of breeding dogs that are going to be presented against other dogs for recognition, or utility and it doesn't matter the purpose. just that the dog must meet a predetermined set of qualities as judged by a 3'rd, hopefully unbiased party.

any breeder doing such must prioritize the qualities that get the dog to the front of the line. it is impossible to prioritize all things at same time. for just an example, I will stick to Am. Specialty GSD, but the concept is the same. to win in the speciality ring, the dog must have extended gait. In the Am. dog this starts with "front reach" so either you breed dogs with front or you don't win. in the recent past, this led to dogs with poor color, poor character, weak floppy rears and often poor health as these qualities were often overlooked in pursuit of front. (I do think the newer gen of breeders are doing a little better, but still the dogs are good pretty much for only show or pet).

IMO, VS, when he set up proofing, was prioritizing the things he felt were needed in a working breed. only after proving worthy in tracking, obedience and fight could dog be considered for "looks/structure" for breeding. so if there were a 100, or 200, or 500 dogs who passed real proofing then winthin this frame work, breeders could choose for different personal preferences or needs, like structure, levels of agression, hunt, etc, etc. this was when people talk about getting dogs suitable for different purposes from same litter.

but if the proofing isn't real, then the house is built on sand and everything that comes after is artificial also. looks, color, gait. these things were not the focus of the breed for many years.

obiviously, there are some breeders who managed to navigate this maze and still produce some good dogs, but in general they have access to dogs with these qualities as well as the ability to recognize the qualities.

and that's JMO and subject to correction,
Rik

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 29 August 2021 - 11:08

Totally agree with you, Rik! The article I took that quote from shows the proofing of the dogs in the annual Sieger show left a lot to be desired. :(

https://leerburg.com/pdf/downfall.pdf


by ValK on 29 August 2021 - 12:08

not really as difficult as many think. the general rule is quite simple - to reach your objective you must use in mating the pair in which both dogs has proven desirable qualities equally, at least through last 3 generations. and be persistent in this.
common mistake being made - when the breeders trying to improve weak point in one dog by strong point by another. in such mixture the genes responsible for weaknesses might be in some specimens oppressed but not totally wiped blank and someday could pop-up in generations down the road.
in plain words - always keep in your breeding pool enough of positive genes to dominate and suppress negative ones.

by GSCat on 29 August 2021 - 22:08

by ValK on 29 August 2021 - 12:08

not really as difficult as many think. the general rule is quite simple - to reach your objective you must use in mating the pair in which both dogs has proven desirable qualities equally, at least through last 3 generations. and be persistent in this.
common mistake being made - when the breeders trying to improve weak point in one dog by strong point by another. in such mixture the genes responsible for weaknesses might be in some specimens oppressed but not totally wiped blank and someday could pop-up in generations down the road.
in plain words - always keep in your breeding pool enough of positive genes to dominate and suppress negative ones.

 

Could something like Embarq be used to help determine which puppies should absolutely not be allowed to breed from a genetic standpoint that could be used and the results back before the puppies are sold?   Would something else be needed besides Embarq, or is there better out there?  I think something like this might help breeders make responsible decisions when purchasing and selling puppies and matching puppies to potential buyers, with the goal of breeding out genetic diseases/conditions and undesirable traits, and breeding for desirable traits.  Of course, which traits are desirable and undesirable will be a matter of opinion.

.

 


by ValK on 30 August 2021 - 10:08

GSCat i don't know. what i told above isn't my invention. i only heard and learned it from communication with people, who was responsible for breeding at border kennel. they learned it from their predecessors and own practical experience.
as i said in another topic, i'm not breeder and never was but had plenty to observe and compare in regard of breeding.
i guess present day science about genetic still too far from ability to understand and artificially manipulate combination of genes in desirable direction.

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 30 August 2021 - 11:08

Could something like Embarq be used to help determine which puppies should absolutely not be allowed to breed from a genetic standpoint that could be used and the results back before the puppies are sold? 

Not at the moment, Valk. The number of genes in the canine genome that can be identified by testing is still very limited. Maybe at some point in the future that will happen, but I think it will need a test much more sophisticated than Embark!


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 30 August 2021 - 12:08

I think it might get used by some unscrupulous people in a bad way, if it ever was possible.

by duke1965 on 30 August 2021 - 17:08

breeding has to many variables, so you cannot work with scheduals, programs, systems, every combination stands on itself, Embark can do absolutely nothing of use in a breedingprogram other than a health case or maybe colour prediction

Im working with and visiting america for 30 years and all that time people are looking for systems etc for breeding, it will never work, breeding is an art, not a science, every combination has to be matched individually






 


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