by Hundmutter on 17 June 2021 - 06:06
ValK, its a hell of a statement to make, that there are no dog foods which come even close to equalling human quality foods. That pre supposes that ALL manufacturers of pet foods are using meat & other ingredients sources which ALL include meats etc that are NOT passed for human consumption. Since there are companies which specifically say they use human grade sources (and not all of those 'boutique' !) I think you might have some trouble proving your claim.
Even in America.
Also I think their costs can be offset by bulk production, not quite as true of hoofstock.
EDITED TO ADD Something else just occurred to me; this whole subject is far more complex than you imply. When you declare 'all' processed foods inferior, you are not taking into account that some of the e.g. cuts of meat used, even if marked 'not for human consumption', are not necessarily inferior in quality to that which is passed for us to use. It may just be those joints and pieces that fussy 1st world publics refuse to buy & consume. The nutritional content isn't necessarily lacking, those bits may contain just the same proteins, fats, and so on. And they don't end up wasted, which is a quite important consideration.
by Hundmutter on 17 June 2021 - 14:06
(Later) ... and while we are on the subject of complexity - which is why I am always very careful not to claim raw is better than kibble, or vice versa, - what are we to understand by "raw" anyway ? Its clear enough when it is a food produced from fresh raw ingredients, from scratch, by individuals. Though even then, there are many arguments about the 'best' form of raw & what it should contain, which bones to include / exclude, should it have added veg / vitamins / supplements; should it be only vegetarian or vegan, without meat / fish at all ?
Many, many people who say they feed raw these days do so by buying in commercial pre-prepared 'raw' diets; 'sausaged' and / or frozen - do we really know what ingredients they are using ? Why would it be okay to trust the provider of one of these who claims everything is human grade, no 4Ds, etc, if we don't trust all of the kibble processors who say that ?
by Rik on 17 June 2021 - 17:06
one thing I always keep in mind is that the #1 purpose of any dog food manufacturer, and I mean any, is not the dog, it's to produce a profit.
some do use better ingredients and, imoo, do produce a better product.
but the end result is that absolutely no one is doing it for any other reason than to make a profit. vegetables are not normally eaten by canines, but the process of breaking down by high heat makes them not only digestible to canines, but also able to meet many nutritional requirements.
and if anyone thinks that the human grade muscle portion of animals (which is currently selling for approx. $15.00 - $35.00/lb./US and up} and would probably yield 1/10 of that dry weight after being run through a high heat extruder, is being used in any dog food, is not being realistic. they do use whole carcass when the animal is old, diseased or dies before processing for humans.
as always IMOO,
and just to add, I'm neither a scientist or animal nutritionist. I am, however, a very long time feeder of dogs as well as a very experienced pooper scooper operator (which can actually tell a lot about what one is putting in the front end), a very experienced reader of dog food labels as well as experienced evaluator of if the dog food was keeping my dog in presentation condition.
by Hired Dog on 17 June 2021 - 18:06
This will be my 3rd bag of it and so far, I am very happy with the results. I was taking some pics this afternoon and I noticed his conditioning, I really like what I see....
His coat has always been amazing but since I started feeding him this food, it has gone beyond...he is so shiny, he looks wet. No dandruff, no flaking, no itching, I am happy.
You are correct, no food manufacturer makes dog food with the best interest at heart, its about profit, but, that is true of every industry. Feeding raw is not for me, plus, I know of no one who has done it for the entire life of a dog and I have nothing to compare it to.
I do know a few people who throw some meat to their dogs every blue moon, but, feeding your dog a pound plus of human quality meat daily gets to be very expensive and not many can afford it.
by Rik on 17 June 2021 - 18:06
I did add some raw to kibble, when I was showing for the extra fat, but not a high percentage.
I did say that some processors do use better ingredients, but in the end the consumer has to pay a for those ingredients.
a lot of show people I know use Purina, either Pro Plan or ONE. this is the most mercenary and profit driven company one can imagine, but they still do so much research and testing that they know what they are putting out and if it works.
and most still add their own "secret ingredient", which I have mentioned before, hamburger, raw chicken, pork/bacon fat. now the secret is out.
by Hundmutter on 18 June 2021 - 03:06
Hmm...point taken about the likelihood of there being MUCH 'human grade' meat in any commercial dog food; but maybe it is the addition of that 'secret ingredient' that makes them able to say it. None of 'em tell you HOW MUCH they use, or how much in proportion to what else they use !
I think there are some small differences between the industrial standards and regulations on our respective sides of the Pond. This would help explain some of the difference in what I think happens commercially, but I completely agree with you that the bottom line is always profit, even where what ValK describes as the 'boutique' companies profess they produce their own foods to get away from the huge conglomerates' not really putting the animals needs first.
Rik you are also right about the R&D money the big companies spend; its not just Purina, its the Waltham Labs/Pedigree scenario too. And Royal Canin can't be far behind. And yet while I have used RC, happily & successfully, I won't touch Purina or Pedigree with a barge pole, 'cos I have come across too many detrimental (but evidenced) stories over the years. Certainly don't use either of those two for a main kibble - as usual, that's just my opinion based in my experience and that of others known to me, and I would not suggest other people abandon them just on what I write ! Let everyone make their own mistakes ;-) ;-)
But its these things that make me come back to saying (and ok some think that means I'm sitting on the fence !) that there is no logical way anybody can declare: "kibble is best for dogs (because its scientifically arrived at), and Raw isn't, and might be dangerous", the way some posters have on here. I use kibble; I have 'always' used kibbles. But that's primarily because it stores more easily and compactly than I have been in a position to obtain and store raw ingredients, not cos I think raw is automatically inferior or harmful. It IS, as Rik notes, a lot of work. But I would do it, especially now down to one, personal, dog since I retired, IF I believed it gave a better result and suited my dog better. I am however guided by his digestive system - if his belly, coat and general health all stay in good nick, why would I need to change ? Its not as though the results are so much outstandingly better, short OR long-term, in dogs regularly fed raw - and I know a few so I can cheerfully state that.
by ValK on 18 June 2021 - 10:06
"I know of no one who has done it for the entire life of a dog"
all my dogs was on it for entire life. way ago we just don't have alternatives and all dogs was fed in such way.
as i mentioned earlier, after relocation my Ari did refuse dog food. perhaps he could be forced to it but i never bothered.
i already used to prep meal for my dogs before so it wasn't big deal for me, considering that back then meat from grocers wasn't very expensive and always can be found something with 50% off on clearance.
with Siegie was somewhat different. prices on meat products sharply went up but when he was pup i still able to afford to buy for him some regular ground beef in bulk packs.
before he reached one year i found small butcher shop with limitless fresh byproduct from meat processing and they even didn't want to charge me for it. so it's not really too hard if one want to find solution.
when cooking own meal, whatever it would be, just put in more. before to finish take out the portion dedicated for dog, add to it meat product and you're done.
b.t.w. all my dogs was fed once a day. such high in protein food holds very good for them and digested very well so not as much dog's shit in your yard.
i guess it's harder for breeders with dozen or more dogs but since those dogs do generate for them profits, would be fair to alocate part of that money into decent natural food for them.
by Billon on 09 July 2021 - 05:07
Really actual discussion, as I think. in my opinion, we should use only natural food and that is the main rule
by Rik on 09 July 2021 - 05:07
it just is what it is.
by Hundmutter on 09 July 2021 - 07:07