Which breed makes the best working dog for detection and protection work? - Page 3

Pedigree Database

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

Premium classified

This is a placeholder text
Group text

by duke1965 on 29 April 2021 - 12:04

Hired dog, but they still love what they do :)

by duke1965 on 29 April 2021 - 12:04

in pedigree malinois, spondylose, heartproblems, problems with weak airtube, dont know the right word, they get exited and drop down as their airpipe is soft and closes down, and occasional bad hips and elbows, more than in the GSD and mixes we scan for health

Hired Dog

by Hired Dog on 29 April 2021 - 12:04

Duke, yes they do, otherwise whats the sense of doing it.....

by duke1965 on 30 April 2021 - 03:04

many people think they do it because they are "trained " to do so

Pitbu1107

by Pitbu1107 on 30 April 2021 - 03:04

I currently run a K9 unit of 4 dogs. We have 1 GSD and 3 Mals. I've seen, worked and trained countless dogs for work or IPO over the last 11 years. Probably in the 50 some range that have run the gambit of labs, dobes, rots, in addition to the above breeds. I've personally handled 1 GSD and 2 Mals over that time.

Here's my take;
GSD and Mals will bring prey, protection, nose and workability in general over most other breeds for all around detection/protection work in one package. Over the top prey can cause focus and retention problems, that will require increased work on the mental side. This cannot be fixed by exercise. Proof is working obedience on an dog and you will see the dog go sleep for a few hours after a 1 hour obedience session. It's like a kid after a hard math class, or a long stressful week at work. The mental exhaustion leads to a feeling of physical exhaustion. Mix in competition over reward and you've got your hands full of getting the dog to retain and focus while diminishing conflict with you over a toy/reward.

GSD's have heart, elbow/hip, eye and bloat issues inherent to the breed. I've had a shepherd bloat and I've seen displaysia. Working span is generally 7-9 years. Most health issues can be reduced by selective breeding with parents with proper genes. Show lines will have the sloped back end, whereas the "working line" European dogs are a more rectangular structure. Solid German bred "Show line" dogs will run neck and neck with a "working line" dog in my experience. I personally avoid Czech Border progeny because of temperament. My experience has been that Czech gene dogs show one of three temperaments; spooky and defensive/unpredictable, spooky and defensive shy, and once in a while solid tempered with a serious defensive side. The last is rare. Czech dogs, in my experience, are also generally more aloof and less tractable than the German line counterparts. West German dogs seem to be solid tempered with more prey play. East German are more defensive. GSD's are generally more tractable, wanting to work with the handler, and have an innate propensity to problem solve and "think before they leap" so to speak. GSD's of proper size will be between 65-80#s. They are harder to work in tight spaces, and are less agile than Mals.

Mals have heart, bloat and the spondylose problems listed above. I've seen bloat and spondylosis personally. Mals are extremely fast and usually bring more prey drive than Shepherds. Mental development is a must for developing focus. Mals will try to out-think the handler, and are usually trying to be two steps ahead. Old school repetition training will get boring and the dog will attempt to game the game to get to reward. Constantly changing up training, and throwing the dog a curveball will help with getting the dog to slow down and think instead of react. Old school reward/yank and crank, especially relying on a lot of unfair or overbearing correction, will hurt training. One of three outcomes is very likely; The dog will have enough and rank on the handler, the dog will shut down and break, or the dog has more of a GSD approach and will handle it. The first two are more likely to happen. Mals are more reactionary and mental development as a puppy is paramount to reduce reaction and bring thinking and focus. German and Belgian bred/trained dogs are very reactionary and can have some very OCD tendencies. French trained Mals are usually better developed mentally. What I mean by reactionary is that the dog reacts quickly, almost without thinking similar to cause/effect. Mals have better longevity of work in general, 8-10 years. They are velcro dogs and generally love to be in physical contact with the handler. Also respond to fight pressure with a huge increase in mental elevation, much like a Pitbull, and do alot of thrashing and growling. Dutchies are like a Mal step brother. I've seen some spooky issues in them. Overall Mals and Dutchies are smaller, 45-70#s. This makes the dog easier to work in tight environments and makes them more agile overall. The inherent prey drive helps Mals work longer in environmental conditions. Tractability is phenomenal if the proper foundation is established from the start. Some Mals have a very high protection drive, which can quickly lead to a lawsuit for a handler that is not paying attention. Mals are not a first time handler dog and require a handler that understands what it takes to be a handler. Females seem to be more suspicious and serious than males. As example, I currently have three males. All three do protection work. I have no issues with them in and around the general public. I've owned two females. Both were dead serious in protection, and threw HATE. Both were always "on" in the presence of strangers in the public. And my current female would bite "for real" at the age of three months. Both my females attacked other dogs with very little provocation. My males have never done that. Mals without proper mental stimulation will get destructive.

Well bred labs are great for single purpose. Some times they are very slow to mentally mature and almost seem dumb in training. This is obviously not the case, but I've seen a lab knock a detection problem out with no issues only to turn around and fail the next go around. Problems that 18-24 month old GSDs and Mals are crushing are hit and miss from day to day with labs of the same age. Some can take to 4 to mentally mature. Same health issues as listed above, so proper genetic selection is a must. You won't get the competition problems like with a GSD or Mal. But you may have to deal with a dog that does solid detection, until a butterfly goes by and distracts, when the dog is young and mentally immature. They are generally a bigger dog than mals, close to the GSD, which brings the workability of tight areas into consideration. Noses are great and the dogs have a GSD longevity.

I've not seen any dobes personally. I've seen one Rott that worked for a contract handler as a dual purpose Bomb/protection. Nose was good. Excellent tractability. Bitework was like getting your arm attached to a boat anchor, impressive fun. But a few bites and you are worn out. Overbreeding has reduced availability of excellent candidates.

I have no experience with German Short Haired Pointers. However the are excellent candidates for detection work. I cannot speak to specific quarks of the breed. I know a guy who hunts with them, and he says they are extremely smart and their noses are excellent.

Huskies IMO are not good candidates. I have not seen a husky that doesn't bring a strong sense of independence and handler competition that IMO adds to many negatives to the equation. They were bred as sled dogs and were domesticated and focused on that discipline. That doesn't mean there aren't outliers within the breed. One of the best detection dogs I've ever seen was a French Bulldog. That being said it's the exception, not the rule, and that applies to the Husky breed. I would not rule them out, but if you are looking to roll out the gate with success, I'd stack the deck with a breed that has been selectively bred to do the work. I've seen Pitbull and Dogo Argentinos that have done work as well. But it comes down to time/money/experience/dedication. It's much easier to shape behavior of a dog with the proper genetic drives than it is to shape weak drives,or in worst case, try to develop a drive that isn't there.

I'll finish this long winded response with this- Your dog experience and talent, access to a talented trainer, and dedication/time should also dictate what breed you choose. If you are new to detection/protection, stick to a GSD/lower speed Mal to get your feet wet. Single purpose I'd throw the lab and German Short Hair into the mix. Once you've got experience in the discipline, you can always mess around with outliers to develop your training skill, as long as you can accept the dog washing out. I've pissed around with a ball nuts Chihuahua in detection just to see if I could and he would. Good luck.

Hired Dog

by Hired Dog on 30 April 2021 - 04:04

Duke, yeah, like you "train" a pit bull to fight or you make a hunting dog hunt...the reality is that you cannot make a dog do anything that it does not have the genetics for, end of story.
Sure, you can train in the desired behaviors once you have determined the genetics are present, but, without that genetic desire to do certain work, you wont get what you need out of a dog.

by Diamondgal on 30 April 2021 - 15:04

There's such thing as "red nose" or "blue nose" Pit like it's a breed. They're AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIERS.

Moving on - in my area, German Shepherds still reign as top breed. Belgian Mal and/or Mal cross comes in second. I'm also seeing Boxers and Boxer/American Bulldog mixes for dual purpose work. Less and less Rottweilers. Haven't seen any Airedale, Bouvier, Belgian Sheepdog, Belgian Tervuren, Chesapeake Bay Retriever or Giant Schnauzer.

I'm seeing less and less Labrador Retrievers and Beagles in detection.

Far too many have switched over to random mixes from shelters. And while nothing wrong with giving a life a second chance. It's leading to encouraging random breeding with questionable motives.

Hired Dog

by Hired Dog on 30 April 2021 - 15:04

There is no such thing as a blue nose or red nose, its not a breed, it is a pit bull and the red and blue are recessives within the breed, but, they are NOT a separate breed.
What area do you live in that deploys boxers and American bulldogs as patrol dogs. I have never seen a single one of them in any American city, ever.
I have seen or heard of a pit bull or two being worked as single purpose detection dogs.

Hired Dog

by Hired Dog on 01 May 2021 - 17:05

Pitbu1107, that was one of the longest and most clear articles I have read in here, with correct spelling and even with paragraphs, my respects to you sir/madam.
We had another individual who used to write walls of stuff, no paragraphs, no spell-check, no cohesive sentences and it got to the point that I had to forward his writings to the nearest University with an obscure languages department to decipher those gems, until I gave up and did not read anything he posted anymore.

I agree with a lot of what you said, with a few exceptions I will mention briefly here. The Malinois has always been my favorite breed, I prefer the NNVBK bred ones as well as the KNPV dogs of yesteryear.
There was serious aggression there, civil dogs, big dogs that could do the job easily, most of them seem to have gone the way of the dodo bird.
French dogs always seemed to be a little, off I guess is the word. Way too much prey drive, no real aggression.

Rotties, I have not seen a real one in 30 years and by real I mean something I would depend my life on. One of the hardest bites I have ever taken on a suit was from a male Rott and he made me see stars, but, that was long a go.
German shepherds, I like them. You spoke of show lines and working lines...THE hardest bite I have ever had on a suit was from a male show line shepherd, big, huge 100 pound dog with zero prey drive, but, real, real if you got in his face, which I did, hence that bite on my triceps which not only made me see stars but the entire Universe.
He was being trained as a PPD for a gentleman who also weighed about 100 pounds...I dont know how that relationship culminated, but, I regress.

Czech dogs that you stay away from...I own one, got him at 8 weeks, he just turned a year old 12 April...
I will be 100% honest with you, even though his breeder will probably read this. So far, I could not ask for a better dog. He is immature as hell, I mean, a puppy still, a clown in the house with the family and yes, he will chase butterflies when he can.
Neutral with other animals, except my wife's two females with which he a royal pain in the gluteus maximus.
He had zero prey drive until he was 5 months old, than it kicked in. Defense and territoriality was present at 8 weeks when we got home after a 15 hour trip and I put him down in the front yard only for him to go after a couple walking by. Today, I would say he sits at 40-60 prey/defense.
Civil, forward with his aggression, but, if you know dogs, you can tell he is still immature. He has never seen a sleeve, a bite pillow or a tug, never been in front of a helper. I know what his primary drive is and I will wait until he matures before I start any bite work.
He is VERY handler sensitive, very...he has never worn a choker, prong collar, E collar, flat collar when we go out for a walk. One single word from me is enough to stop any BS he may be engaging into.
He learned his OB without ever a leash or collar. VERY tractable, I am his be all and end all in his world and he wants to be with me without my asking.

His entire body is a support system for his nose, hunt drive off the charts, seriously. This dog will do article searches with 3 days of training right now. Its about 100 degrees out currently, so, training has to be measured against that.
I have also never met a more curious dog who has to check and sniff EVERYTHING he comes into contact with, everything.
My wife happens to support 50% of all Amazon purchases and we have a myriad of boxes that arrive daily, so, besides the free agitation in the form of Amazon drivers we get when he tries to get through a hurricane proof window to get the evil delivery man, he HAS to inspect every single box that comes in here.
He will most certainly be my next detection dog and perhaps even patrol/detection.
Anyway, I typed enough to lose most peoples attention, I will leave you with this, have a great weekend.

Koots

by Koots on 01 May 2021 - 20:05

Hired - I agree, that was a great read from Pitbu1107, and hit close to home on a few fronts. 

Firstly, the mental aspect of training which can be as exhausting to the dog as the physical aspect. Work the mind along with the body, and you'll have a contented, tired dog.

Secondly, the part about the Rottie and being a boat anchor on the bite. I laughed at this, as I can recall being the helper for one of my club trials as the regular helper couldn't do the trial that day. So, I took it on and remember this one Rottie. He bit, then dropped his butt, and it was like moving an 85-90 lb sack of potatoes, lol. At all of 5'2", that was quite a task for me, lol (even in my younger, fitter days) but we got through it. I'm sure I wasn't much of a challenge to that dog, but he sure was sure a challenge to me, lol!

Also, it is nice to read a post of some length that has good structure, grammar, punctuation and is easy to follow - I can relate to what Hired said about some posters of the past. One of them even used different text colours, but as Hired, I found that did nothing to help the rambling, incoherent thoughts and would stop reading past the first few lines, lol.






 


Contact information  Disclaimer  Privacy Statement  Copyright Information  Terms of Service  Cookie policy  ↑ Back to top