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by Sunsilver on 08 December 2022 - 19:12
MY health issues! I was diagnosed with breast cancer 3 years ago. I'd hoped to be able to make a comeback once treatment was finished, but my nearly 70 year old body said 'NO'! :(
Nothing wrong with Eska at all...
Nothing wrong with Eska at all...
by charlie319 on 09 December 2022 - 14:12
Sunsilver: sorryyouve had to,go through that. My mom is 10+ years post left lumpectomy and more than 5 years on Anastrozole. Now there's Tamoxifen and Keytruda... Your observation is pretty much how she felt at first.... Getting your hormones tampered with like that will have marked effects. Hopefully, it will all be worth it.
As to the question, I had a long coat SL-WL cross and had Judge Rainier Mast tell me "You must tittle this dog". When he got SG2 in 2014, Judge Wilhelm Nordseick had some great critique of how easy he was to like... Ares had some US lines (has Covet Tucker Hills Manhattan twice on bottom) to go along with WGSL, WGWL, DDR, Cz... Long story short... Could not care less about the sleeve, but wanted the man. Early in his aggression training, he would get so "wound up" in aggression display that his actual bite was not immediate. In short, a temperament issue. So, I decided not to train him into what might be a liability. Temperament can be, and is, a limiting factor in a dog's development. If the dog is not capable of honest working temperament, you can "make" the dog pass at trial... probably due to financial concerns, but... it is a disservice to the dog, those who breed to it, and ultimately to the breed.
Look at Remo and how many 3/3 TSB scores his progeny produces. There should be a requirement that a 4/4 TSB score is required for a VA rating... There may be a handful of his progeny (Omen, Pacco/Pedro) that meet the 4/4 TSB...
Working temperament is a precious commodity in WGSL.
As to the question, I had a long coat SL-WL cross and had Judge Rainier Mast tell me "You must tittle this dog". When he got SG2 in 2014, Judge Wilhelm Nordseick had some great critique of how easy he was to like... Ares had some US lines (has Covet Tucker Hills Manhattan twice on bottom) to go along with WGSL, WGWL, DDR, Cz... Long story short... Could not care less about the sleeve, but wanted the man. Early in his aggression training, he would get so "wound up" in aggression display that his actual bite was not immediate. In short, a temperament issue. So, I decided not to train him into what might be a liability. Temperament can be, and is, a limiting factor in a dog's development. If the dog is not capable of honest working temperament, you can "make" the dog pass at trial... probably due to financial concerns, but... it is a disservice to the dog, those who breed to it, and ultimately to the breed.
Look at Remo and how many 3/3 TSB scores his progeny produces. There should be a requirement that a 4/4 TSB score is required for a VA rating... There may be a handful of his progeny (Omen, Pacco/Pedro) that meet the 4/4 TSB...
Working temperament is a precious commodity in WGSL.
by Sunsilver on 09 December 2022 - 16:12
Yup. And Ursus (Star's grandsire) was one of the better producers of working temperament. I was told the reason I shouldn't title her was she got pushed into defense too easily, which could make her a liability around strangers. And since I used her as a hearing ear dog, yes, that was not a good thing.
It's all a game to Eska - she sees the sleeve lying on the ground and wags her tail! And the club decoy was one of her bestest friends! :D
Dallas (Star's ASL grandsire - Kismet's Sight for Sore Eyes) was a good working dog too. He got his level 1 herding on sheep, and someone who saw him work said he looked like he could go all day! She said he could have gone much further with the herding if Jimmy Moses had had the time to work him.
It's all a game to Eska - she sees the sleeve lying on the ground and wags her tail! And the club decoy was one of her bestest friends! :D
Dallas (Star's ASL grandsire - Kismet's Sight for Sore Eyes) was a good working dog too. He got his level 1 herding on sheep, and someone who saw him work said he looked like he could go all day! She said he could have gone much further with the herding if Jimmy Moses had had the time to work him.
by charlie319 on 09 December 2022 - 18:12
I think herding titles should be promoted.
It's what they were bred for.
It's what they were bred for.
by Diamondgal on 09 December 2022 - 19:12
I remember Winning Ways from years ago.
By the way, their website is down - or at least messed up because I can't access it without warnings.
By the way, their website is down - or at least messed up because I can't access it without warnings.
by Sunsilver on 09 December 2022 - 22:12
Charlie, agree 100%! But it's something that's being lost from both the German and American dogs. :(
by charlie319 on 10 December 2022 - 09:12
Sunsilver:
IMPO, all lines are presently being "developed" to the test in IGP. The test itself has already been greatly devalued in the interest of animal welfare... Ask an old hand at WL's and have them compare WL dogs from 30 to 40 years ago to the present stock. That is why temperament and controlable aggression are such sought after qualities and when a top tier dog displays them (Zet vom Napte-Emmer-Eck), he makes the others look tame and/or clumsy... A VA1 missed target in long bite but re-engaged. https://youtu.be/ZIJQDxNvAN8
Zet faced the same helper and same move and stuck his neck out to make the bite. https://youtu.be/DIDZEgbKX1U The great €€€ interests in the SV won't have such display compare with their lines... Thus, Zet is now in China... IMPO, herding test would be the best gauge of "good working temperament" as the protection phase is watered down and compromised.
IMPO, all lines are presently being "developed" to the test in IGP. The test itself has already been greatly devalued in the interest of animal welfare... Ask an old hand at WL's and have them compare WL dogs from 30 to 40 years ago to the present stock. That is why temperament and controlable aggression are such sought after qualities and when a top tier dog displays them (Zet vom Napte-Emmer-Eck), he makes the others look tame and/or clumsy... A VA1 missed target in long bite but re-engaged. https://youtu.be/ZIJQDxNvAN8
Zet faced the same helper and same move and stuck his neck out to make the bite. https://youtu.be/DIDZEgbKX1U The great €€€ interests in the SV won't have such display compare with their lines... Thus, Zet is now in China... IMPO, herding test would be the best gauge of "good working temperament" as the protection phase is watered down and compromised.
by Sunsilver on 10 December 2022 - 11:12
Charlie, totally agree with you. Also, the ability to pass the German tracking tests, which are much longer and more difficult than the AKC ones, is a good indicator of a dog's working ability.
by charlie319 on 10 December 2022 - 16:12
That is correct. It's about the one thing left in IGP that is not a languid vestige of its former self.
by KKB on 10 December 2022 - 21:12
Such a great conversation!
@Sunsilver: Your mention of Jimmy Moses and Dallas reminded me of this article, which I had saved some time ago: https://www.thedogplace.org/ProFiles/Moses-James-Interview-028.asp
@charlie319: There is a fellow in New York State, Ulf Kinzel, who is quite interesting. His Facebook page is White Clover Sheep Farm. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100071363336686 He tended sheep with GSD's in East Germany until the wall came down, worked in herding and did herding competitions in West Germany, eventually making his way to the United States with his suitcase and two GSD's. He has videos on his Facebook age showing his dogs herding his sheep, as a GSD was meant to do. I know he holds herding competitions there for GSD's too.
From his page: "July 3rd marks the 35th anniversary when my very first German Shepherd Dogs were born in 1987. Their names were Sina and Cora and they were the daughters of a female, who was three times the winner of the East German “National” herding competition. They were bred by late Rudolf Hirch, a household name among people who tended sheep with GSDs (German Shepherd Dogs) in East Germany. I was just 20 years old at that time and was delighted to be able to purchase these two dogs. (I had Old German Shepherd Dogs at that time and I had always wanted a German Shepherd Dog although “always” is not a very long time when you are 20 years old.) They accompanied me on my most radically shifting journey from my home in Mecklenburg in East Germany to places in the Black Forest and the Swabian Jura in West Germany to my beginning years in the US in New Jersey, were they are buried in a sheep pasture. Their extraordinary skill set was a big part of who I was.
I have not been a single day without a GSD since then. Their names are Treu, Bea, Anton, Caro, Fiona, Lenz, and Irmgard. All were or are GSDs for the purpose of herding sheep. I don’t own GSDs for any other reason. How many more years will I have herding German Shepherd Dogs? I’ll let you know in 20 or 30 years from now…
The picture shows Sina and Cora at age 3 in 1990 at a herding competition near Lake Constance in West Germany. They were both sable (gray), a very common color among working GSDs."
@Sunsilver: Your mention of Jimmy Moses and Dallas reminded me of this article, which I had saved some time ago: https://www.thedogplace.org/ProFiles/Moses-James-Interview-028.asp
@charlie319: There is a fellow in New York State, Ulf Kinzel, who is quite interesting. His Facebook page is White Clover Sheep Farm. https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100071363336686 He tended sheep with GSD's in East Germany until the wall came down, worked in herding and did herding competitions in West Germany, eventually making his way to the United States with his suitcase and two GSD's. He has videos on his Facebook age showing his dogs herding his sheep, as a GSD was meant to do. I know he holds herding competitions there for GSD's too.
From his page: "July 3rd marks the 35th anniversary when my very first German Shepherd Dogs were born in 1987. Their names were Sina and Cora and they were the daughters of a female, who was three times the winner of the East German “National” herding competition. They were bred by late Rudolf Hirch, a household name among people who tended sheep with GSDs (German Shepherd Dogs) in East Germany. I was just 20 years old at that time and was delighted to be able to purchase these two dogs. (I had Old German Shepherd Dogs at that time and I had always wanted a German Shepherd Dog although “always” is not a very long time when you are 20 years old.) They accompanied me on my most radically shifting journey from my home in Mecklenburg in East Germany to places in the Black Forest and the Swabian Jura in West Germany to my beginning years in the US in New Jersey, were they are buried in a sheep pasture. Their extraordinary skill set was a big part of who I was.
I have not been a single day without a GSD since then. Their names are Treu, Bea, Anton, Caro, Fiona, Lenz, and Irmgard. All were or are GSDs for the purpose of herding sheep. I don’t own GSDs for any other reason. How many more years will I have herding German Shepherd Dogs? I’ll let you know in 20 or 30 years from now…
The picture shows Sina and Cora at age 3 in 1990 at a herding competition near Lake Constance in West Germany. They were both sable (gray), a very common color among working GSDs."
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