EPILEPSY - Page 2

Pedigree Database

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by Mackenzie on 18 October 2022 - 01:10

Sunsilver - There are 19 animals named All that Jazz listed on this database. Can you please be more specific about which one you refer to in your post.

Mackenzie


mrdarcy (admin)

by mrdarcy on 18 October 2022 - 13:10

Sunsilver has already posted a link to the pedigree of the dog in question eary on in this thread!  https://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1924558-benvillarosa-all-that-jazz?_v=20130118163228


Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 18 October 2022 - 13:10

Just to help people trace how bad this was - Lornaville Firestone Summer Mist is the grand-dam of both the mother and father of All that Jazz. That's not linebreeding that's INBREEDING! There's a reason why the SV won't allow breeding closer than the 5th generation!

Spartacist of Hendrawen was a known fitter. Here is the backmassing on him in Summer Mist's pedigree:

↳5,6,6,6,6,7,7,7,7 - 5,5,6,6,7,7 ↳UK.CH. Spartacist of Hendrawen

Spartacist goes back to Avon Prince 14 times!! But these dogs are too far back in the pedigree to even show, unless you have a resource like the PDB which will trace the dogs back to the 7th generation, if you click the right button!

5,6,6,7,7,7,7,7 - 7,7,7,7,7,7 UK.CH. Avon Prince of Alumvale

And, of course, he's not the ONLY dog in the pedigree that goes back to Avon Prince. There are MANY others!

(backmassing, for those of you who are not familiar with the term, means an ancestor appears multiple times in the previous generations of a pedigree, greatly increasing the likelihood that genetic problems will be passed forward even though the dog(s) may be many generations back.)


Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 18 October 2022 - 14:10

Jazz is also bred 3, 3 on Lornaville Chief Dancer, meaning Dancer is in both the mother's and father's pedigrees 3 generations back. Dancer is bred 6-77 on Hendrawens Syrious Norge, who has 6 lines going back to Avon Prince.

And that's just TWO of the dogs that are the closest ancestors of All That Jazz!

If I kept on, I would find many more lines. It would have been a miracle if this poor dog hadn't suffered from epilepsy!

This is why I ALWAYS trace pedigrees back at LEAST 7 generations. Many people will try to tell you nothing matters beyond the 5th generation. With this sort of backmassing/inbreeding, YES, IT MATTERS!!

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 18 October 2022 - 14:10

These dogs were all a specific type of dog, known as the British Alsatian. There has been talk of making the Alsatian a separate breed. They are bred for shorter legs that what is considered standard for the GSD, and, unfortunately, the gene pool is pretty limited, and relies strongly on dogs that are either know fitters, or carry whatever genes that are causing epilepsy.

If you look at the dogs in Jazz's pedigree, you will see numerous typical examples. The Alsatian type evolved mainly as a result of WWII, and resulting prejudice against anything German.

Since the type most resembles the American show line dogs rather than the German dogs, in recent years Alsatian fanciers have been breeding to Canadian and American show lines to get around the problems caused by the excessive backmassing.

Edit: after re-reading the first post by Jazz's owners, I've been reminded they had ANOTHER dog that had to be PTS due to seizures: Lornaville Moscow Flyer. He/she is not in the database, though. 

Fortunately, it seems the Lornaville kennel has gone out of business, though evidence is out there that they continued to breed on dogs that were either epileptic or carriers of the disease.  http://www.alsatinville.freeservers.com/custom.html

Tarquin of Dawnway traces to Avon Prince 15 times, and Lornaville Seabird has too many lines to mention, though they are too far back to show on her pedigree.


by Mackenzie on 27 October 2022 - 10:10

Has anyone heard of a case of epilepsy from either Hagadahls Figo or his son Ballack ?
Epilepsy is present in their background with all of the Uk. carriers there.

Mackenzie

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 29 October 2022 - 12:10

Mackenzie, all of the dogs in his pedigree are German lines, not U.K. Do you know of any fitters in his pedigree - not saying the German dogs are free of it, just that it's not the huge problem with them that it is with the British Alsatians.

by Mackenzie on 29 October 2022 - 14:10

Sunsilver the route to the UK carriers go back to Hagadahls Figo on The dam side in the third generation and find Hagadahls Hamisch. Track back on his dam side and you will find the UK dogs and just keep tracking back.

Mackenzie

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 29 October 2022 - 17:10

That's a long way back! :o

by Mackenzie on 30 October 2022 - 03:10

I agree Sunsilver,however, as epilepsy today with Alsatian lines in particular is still appearing it establishes the fact that caution is still needed. The Alsatian faction’s Club was founded on these lines and the Lornavale breeder was the founder of the Club. Thanks to the wishy washy attitude of the Kennel Club regarding the Breed Standard and the All Rounder Judges appointed at Championship level the split in the breed was made. Today, as the German faction has grown to higher levels than the Kennel Club know alls have had to fall more in line with the true breed standard.

Mackenzie





 


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