Opinions on this pedigree please ( stud suggestions and why ?) - Page 2

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by vom ost see on 08 April 2022 - 11:04

this seems to be another attempt at "the golden middle"..to improve working traits of the "showlines",and improve conformation of the "working lines",the "eastern europeans(slovacs,ect) seem to be doing a good job at it,but these breedings have been tried before...there will be some nice conformation dogs,true also for nice working dogs,but in general,while the conformation/working ability might be "correct".. to this point nothing has been "overwhelming",but i offer up dogs in the working arena like "PACO AUS AGRIGENTO",who was successful at the national level,but no others come to my mind,but i'm sure others can name a "few",not sure about the "show-ring",in my experience,these type breedings produce about everything in the spectrum.they tend to make much better family type dogs that are willing enough to participate in club-level sport...just my opinion!


by Sunsilver on 08 April 2022 - 13:04

One of the most knowledgeable working dog people to ever post here was Gustav. He trained working dogs for the military during Vietnam, and has continued to work with them ever since. Here's what he had to say about mixing working lines with show lines. The post is on this board somewhere, but I no longer have a direct link for it:

98% of all showline dogs go back to Quanto/Canto predominantly!!....That's why many people won't introduce showlines to their stock, because the lines are SOOOOO saturated with the Quanto/Canto blood, that the weaknesses of this line will come in your stock disproportionately. But for showline people to not use workinglines when the more diverse working blood will still not have the impact of the concentrated show blood(and they desperately need the improvements in mental state and drives) to me is insane and clearly shows a lack of wanting to improve the working capability. You see; a showline dog can produce individual dogs that can work, but they won't consistently provide good working stock because the genetics are too unbalanced and saturated with the weak L litter Wienerau. I know some people don't like to hear this but don't let the facts of today's split and its reasons get in the way of your opinion.

by Diamondgal on 09 April 2022 - 23:04

The only one I recognize is Remo.


by TIG on 16 April 2022 - 15:04

To the op

"Functional and correct conformation"

A good goal but if you intend to enter the show world you must absolutely understand it will get you no where either in the American speciality shows or the German SV style shows. Since the 70s what has been selected for in the breed ring is extremity of characteristics. I look at most VA dogs these days and want to barf. Give me a solid SG/V dog any day - they have a much more standard structure. You may have some small success in the U.S. all breed shows by carefully selecting your judges BUT most of the old timers who understood correct GSD structure have long since retired or died and the newer generations have either come up through the specialty show system or been educated thru the AKC judges program which uses material designed by & for the GSDCA.

I know of what I speak. I got my first GSD in 1963 when I was 13 and before the bifurcation of the breed. I started to go to dog shows, obedience trials, clinics & seminars to learn more about the breed. I highly highly recommend you do that for a number of years before you even think about breeding- as well as reading everything you can lay your hands on. I joined the local AKC German Shepherd Club. Today you have many more venues to participate in Schutzhund clubs, AHBA (herding) tracking clubs, nosework clubs, ring sport etc etc. Given what you have stated at a minimum I would suggest your local AKC GSD club, your local USCA club and an obedience club. VOLUNTEER ( I know shocking) to help with shows & trials. You will learn a lot especially while a stewarding or being the judges secretary. I also suggest you might want to explore the herding world - imho some of the most balanced dogs out there plus it is what these dogs were designed to do and for the most part their genes remember that. It probably would be a great place to start with your girl.

I grew up in New England which came later to the working dog environment, yet my choice for a second dog had a pedigree that combined old American lines with German lines - again before the bifurcation of the breed. She was the first dog I showed in conformation. Now you must understand that by this time I had a very good understanding of the German Shepherd world. I KNEW I was making a very different choice than those involved in the show world ever would. I also understood the consequences of that decision in terms of success or not in the dog show world. And it would be a not because she was not the current flavor or fad. That did not stop me from showing for two reasons. I have always been proud of my dogs and I always felt that John Q Public had a right to see a stable clear headed correctly structured dog because if we don't show these dogs how will they know.I did limited showing with this dog at all breed shows. Limited due to limits on my time & money. The most important show I took her to was her first in Kitchner Ontario shortly after she came to me. This was b4 the advent of SV shows but this club brought over a SV judge and we were promised a written critique which I really wanted to get a dispassionate view of my girl's strengths & weaknesses. The judge was Rolf Fauser who I later found out much to my delight was one of the few SV judges who could also judge the HGH. I am proud to say that day novice dog and novice handler took SG1. The 5 bitches who took V in front of us were all imports.

I bred this dog to a German dog - not imported- his owner was a German Dr. who had moved to this country & brought the sire & dam with him. This dog was linebred 3-4 on the 1956 Sieger Volker Zollgrenzschutzhaus a line my girl also carried. From this I got beautifully correct dogs with clear heads , good working traits and wonderful herding ability. I showed one of the daughters a fair amount in both all breed and specialty shows & did point her. This was during the time the breed did split apart as Americans were inbreeding on Lance of Fran-jo. We almost always won our class - even at specialities - but I went in knowing it was highly unlikely we would get winners & points. After all the critiques described her as correct & standard while the winner was almost always described as extreme. That and that fact in winners class the puppies were often bigger than my bitch ( 22 in). :)) In those days it was not surprising to see show winners 27-30in tall.

So the moral of this very long story is can you have it all? It depends on how you define all. I felt I did in that I had a structurally correct incredibly stable beautiful bitch with great herding talent. Was she a Grand Vitrix in anyone's eyes but mine. No. But then again you may have gathered from my story that while I am a seeker of learning I have also learned one man's opinion is just that - one man's opinion.

So my advice to you is don't be in a hurry to breed. Take the time to learn about all aspects of the breed and the Shepherd world. Then make your decisions.


by Sunsilver on 16 April 2022 - 15:04

Tig has some excellent advice as well as many years of experience! I would listen to what she says.

When I got my first registered dog, I wanted to show conformation with her. I soon realized that because she was a mix of two different lines, she was not going to win anything in the show ring. I also soon realized that both the German and American show lines had such exaggerate conformation that I didn't WANT to bother showing either one.


by kitkat3478 on 23 April 2022 - 19:04

Well I vew bewen mixing showlines with working lines for a good number of years. I have had 3 of my pups go on tpo be certified police k9. In fact they are waiying on a pup from me now.
My dogs are anything but inconsistent. There are some that do local sport venues, but I don t care about having podium dogs. I caree about temperament, health and conformation. A German Shepherd "should be" capale of doing what ever the task is that is set before them. That don t mean they have to be doing it, jusat able to do it.
For so many people that have "just a pet"those dogs are worth just as much to those people that own them as the podium dog is to the competitor. Possibly more because their dogs actually live with them people,

t When you mix the lines, I think you can keep the best of each line in tact, and get beautiful dogs that also possess the ability toi work along with the desire to please. I m sure a good many will disagree, but for me and my dogs, this hyas worked out very well for us, and their owners.


by charlie319 on 23 April 2022 - 20:04

For what it's worth. The bottom, on 5th generation has Dux v Haus Kalbach... Some years ago, I looked into that kennel... They were an offshoot of Van Noort. Good quality dogs.

Also, some of the males on the Show side are actually known for their work on C phase and passing that on.

My opinion on show results is not glowing. You can go to the show and try to win, or you can prep your dog to "wow" the crowd. I kind of like the WL side of this pedigree, but, it is what it is. When you try to straddle the boat and the dock, you're likely to get wet.


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