US Police K9 trainers and Schutzhund - Page 1

Hello everyone, On more than one occasion I have heard some US Police K9 trainers disapproving of schutzhund. The remarks ranged from against schutzhund trained dogs to against schutzhund training in its entirety. I can understand the bias against points dogs. Anyone else have an opinion on this matter. Do any countries have a national standard on Police K9 training? Kyle

Kyle in a lot of instances schutzhund dogs and k9 dogs are the same, its just a matter of how you train the dog. Ive seen some very very strong k9 dogs and just as many really weak nervie ones, adn the same for schtuzhund. Ive heard k9 handlers say that schutzhund is just a game and not real, and they are right. For the most part we (schutzhund people) are weekend warrior while k9 officers may have thier life on the line. But we have 8 dogs in my club that could be a k9 dog in no more than 2 weeks (as far as the bie work goes). but thats not what we do. regardless of what you are doing, k9,schtuzhund,PSA or Ring. Training, is training, is training. So be very cautious of k9 handlers that can not see the value of schutzhund, of schutzhund trainers that do not see the value of k9, of PSA handers that do not see the value of schutzhund etc, etc, etc.... We all are trying to harness and direct our dogs drives period. some do it on a sleeve, bite suite, and some in real situtations... well that my 2 cents

They are different types of training. One is sport, the other is real life. You really can't compare the two.

HI KYLE: GREAT QUESTION. HERE'S MY 2 CENTS: IT CAN BE SAID THAT THERE ARE GREAT SIMILARITIES BETWEEN SCHUTZHUND AND POLICE K9 DOGS. IT CAN ALSO BE SAID THAT THERE ARE GREAT DIFFERENCES REQUIRED. ADDITIONALLY, 2 SCHUTZHUND DOGS CAN BE EXTREMELY DIFFERENT AND YET SCORE THE SAME POINTS (IE. ONE DRIVEN HEAVILY BY PREY AND TOTALLY SLEEVE HAPPY WHILE THE OTHER BY DEFENSE AND WANT THE MAN--BUT HAS BEEN TRAINED TO ONLY BITE THE SLEEVE WHEN AVAILABLE) SCHUTZHUND IS A SPORT DESIGNED TO DETERMINE BREED-WORTHINESS. IT IS A SPORT OF POINTS. DOGS CAN BE PREY/DEFENSE/FIGHT DRIVEN IN MANY DIFFERENT PROPORTIONS, HOWEVER MOST WILL AGREE THAT A BALANCED DOG OR ONE MORE SLIGHTLY LEANING TO PREY WOULD PERECENTAGE WISE SCORE BEST IN SCHUTZHUND WHILE ONE MORE DEFENSIVE/CIVIL WOULD BE REQUIRED FOR POLICE K9. NOW I HAVE SEEN A COUPLE "AGGRESSIVE PREY" SCHUTZHUND DOGS THAT WOULD SCARE THE HELL OUT OF MOST HANDLERS/OFFICERS/CRIMINALS AND WERE TAUGHT TO BITE THE BODY SUIT AND DO POLICE K9 WORK WITHIN A COUPLE WEEKS OR SOONER. ONE THINGS PEOPLE SEE ALOT OF IN SCHUTZHUND SPORT FROM THE WEAKER DOGS IS "PLAY" DRIVE WHICH MANY MISINTERPRET FOR PREY. I DO KNOW, HOWEVER, THAT THESE DOGS AND THEIR HANDLERS HAVE A GREAT TIME OUT ON THE FIELD, EVEN THOUGH AT TIMES THEY WISH FOR MORE, HOWEVER GOD BLESS THEM. ALTHOUGH THESE DOGS HAVE THE ABILITY TO BE SCHUTZHUND TITLED, THE LIKELIHOOD OF THEM MAKING AN EFFECTIVE POLICE K9 IS VERY UNLIKELY--AND I BET MOST POLICE OFFICERS WOULD NOT WANT TO DEPEND ON THAT SORT OF DOG IN A POTENTIAL LIFE AND DEATH SITUATION. I AM INVOLVED IN SCHUTZHUND AND I HAVE AN EXTREMELY DEFENSIVE/CIVIL MALE AND FEMALE. I LIKE THE "REAL" DOGS AS OTHERS WOULD SAY. HOWEVER, BELIEVE ME, THEY DO TAKE ALOT OF EXTRA WORK IN PREY--TO BRING OUT AS MUCH IN THEM AS POSSIBLE, THEY DO TEND TO BE MORE OBEDIENT THAN PREY-ORIENTED DOGS, BUT ARE DEFINITELY NOT AS FAST IN CERTAIN EXERCISES. I WOULD BE WILLING TO GIVE UP MANY POINTS TO HAVE THESE TYPE OF DOGS BECAUSE I ALSO USE THEM FOR PERSONAL AND ESTATE PROTECTION. I KNOW OTHERS IN THE CLUB PREFER PREY DOGS FOR THE "FLASHINESS" THEY BRING, BUT OFTEN COMPLAIN THAT THERE IS NO REALNESS IN CERTAIN BARK AND HOLD SITUATIONS--I TEND TO BELIEVE ITS MORE ABOUT PLAY FOR THOSE DOGS THEN PREY. I GUESS ALOT OF IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU WANT OUT OF YOUR DOGS.

Okay for your first question, yes there are people in police K-9 that do not like Sch. Every one has his own opinion. On the other hand there are those in police K-9 that like a good Sch dog. I am one of them. I love the obedience and with a Sch titled dog it takes alot less work to convert him to a police dog. Yes I said convert. The problem I ave seen with Sch dogs that have not been converted or poorly trained police dogs is equipment orientation. I have known of police k-9's that when deployed have run along side of the suspect looking for the sleeve. It is just a matter of getting them away from equipment orientation. Thats done through the use of a hidden sleeve and muzzle work. also a suit is used to start getting the dog to target other areas. For a good trainer it is not that difficult. Then there is the issue between bark and hold and bite and hold. That is another big contention with varies opinions on both sides. I have seen bark and hold and bite and hold police dogs. Basic difference is that on a bite and hold if you do not recall the dog he will bite the decoy even if the decoy is not moving. I have worked both. Police decoying is done differently. It would take alot of time to explain that but it is different. A good SCH decoy would have no problem learning proper police decoy work. When I was in the states we had a SCH guy train with us and decoy for us. As far as national standards in the US you have N.A.P.W.D.A. ( North American Police Work Dog Association) And U.S.P.C.A. ( United States Police Canine Association). Both of which have recognized standards for police K-9's. You can find them om the web by just typeing in their initials in your search engine. You also have many states that have certification standards. I guess one last thing to add is that there are police dogs that work the streets and also do well in SCH. Guess thats my 6 cents worth

One is sport the other is real life, this is true. Teaching grip work is the same to start and add pressure accordingly. Many US Police K9 handlers have never owned a dog prior to being assigned to the K9 unit. I believe schutzhund teaches and makes you a better handler. Thru schutzhund the handler can learn how to read his dog, how to bond with your dog and how to train your dog. Schutzhund is like learning the basics ie getting your high school diploma and police work is specialty training like getting a college degree with a specific major (patrol, scent, special dog). Schutzhund training should also emcompass different grip scenarios so as to give variety and prevent boardom of repetitive training. To overlook or dismis the merits of schutzhund is like trying to run without knowing how to walk. Kyle

I THINK MOST OF YOU SHOULD REALLY WORK AROUND REAL DOGS MORE, THE DOGS I NO AND TRAIN WITH WILL NEVER BE SCH DOGS,SURE THEY COMPETE BUT THERE NOT THERE TO PLAY GAMES WITH YOU, SURE SOME SCH DOGS BRING MORE TO THE TABLE THEN OTHERS, BUT THERE STILL PLAYING A GAME, K9 DOGS WILL KICK YOUR ASS NOT PLAY A DAMM GAME WITH YOU!!! JMO

Schutzhund IS a game. A sport.It was created to test the potential working ability for breeding. It developed into a sport. It is not meant to be "real" life. It is the standard to which we measure work ability for progeny.

K9ONLY1: OBVIOUSLY EVERYONE IS ENTITLED TO THEIR OWN OPINION HOWEVER, MY DOGS ARE REAL AND I KNOW OF MANY REAL KICK-ASS DOGS IN SCHUTZHUND. ACTUALLY, ONE I KNOW CAN'T EVEN GET PAST HIS B AND FEW WORKING POLICE K9'S CAN BRING WHAT HE DOES. A FEW OTHERS HAVE BLOWN UP IN TRIALS FOR BITING THE HELPER(UNSECURED EXERCISES ETC.) MY DOGS, AND THE ABOVE MENTIONED, ARE NOT OUT TO PLAY GAMES...THEY HAVE BEEN TRAINED AND TAUGHT TO CONTROL THEMSELVES IN THOSE SPECIFIC SITUATIONS--IE. THE SCHUTZHUND FIELD ETC. AND HOPEFULLY THEY DO. THEIR REALNESS BRINGS PRONOUNCED RATINGS IN PROTECTION BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT THE CONTROL AN OFFICER MUST HAVE ON HIS POLICE K9, AND THE REAL-ONES, SHOULD BE ABLE TO AND CAN DO THE SPORT. A GOOD EXAMPLE IS STORMFRONT'S BRAWNSON--DEFINITELY A REAL DOG, AN INCREDIBLE POLICE K-9(2 TIME CHAMP) AND A SCHH3 DOG.

Greatest, No one is saying that schutzhund is not a game, and that the way the dogs are raised and trained. But to say they are totally different is crazy. Unless you start your young k9 dogs on live bites. Id be willing to say if you took two puppies of the same drive level from the same litter and did the same foudation work either would make the cut as schutzhund or k9 unit. there are many people that enjoy schutzhnd, they enjoy spending time w/ club members and their dog. while there are many dogs that cant make the cut as a k9 there are many k9 dogs that should have been cut a long time ago. I have 5 yr old gsd who has never bitten a suit and lll bet anyone any amount of money he i could train him to take real bites in 2 days. Not only that her would fall in the top 5% k9 dogs. But to be fair he's not a point dog either. Basicaly, a good dog can do either. and if you dont agree id love to hear your opinion on Berhnardt Flinks success.