Guarantee on hip dysplasia - Page 2

Here's an add on to Blitzen's post above, .... I would recommend that anyone breeding and getting into the xraying process get a book of their own with good pictures such as The German Shepherd Dog book by Susan Barwig, there are examples I believe of hip structure....

M. Carter, All the K-9 behaviorists tell the general public that the ideal age to bring a new puppy into the home is 8 weeks. Most agree that 4 months is not the ultimate age for establishing the dog-human bond, in fact, if some are to be believed, it might be one of the worst times. Not sure what most GSD buyers are looking for, but in my limited experience, these are high maintenance dogs that need to be part of a family in order to thrive. Holding them back til 16 weeks and a prelim xray might be best for the buyer, but it might not be best for the puppy in the long run. There's no easy way to do it, is there?

Sbstein, you have made several incorrect assumptions. Research requires READING scientific reports, of which there are many, as well as conducting test groups and exchanging results with others who are also conducting research groups and have decades of experience in the field. Most people are not overachievers such as myself so my work and the work of others like myself would never be understood by most of those who proclaim to be "world class breeders" these days. I no longer participate in the art but that doesn't mean I don't continue to educate myself. Keep in mind, just because someone has a license to be a VET does not mean they finshed at the top of their class or have the expertise to offer sound advise on when you can xray puppies.

I just read the statisics on OFA's website regarding preliminary xrays and they are most impressive. The reliability increases with age, but being able to identify almost 80% of dysplastic dogs as young as 3 to 4 months is certainly good news for those breeding large breeds. OFA is traditionally very conservative, so if they accept Dr. Corley's research as being valid and of importance, who am I to challenge it? I stand corrected. If I breed another litter, I will be sure to have those hips done younger than I normally have in the past. I agree with M. Carter, not all vets are qualified to pass on hip xrays, been there, done that. In my experience, the older "horse vets" are the worst as many of them will be a lot less stringent about hips and "pass" most anything. Unless you use a vet who is a certified radiologist, you might want to send those xrays off to the experts at OFA. It would be a good thing to be able to place a preliminary hip evaluation in each puppy packette. As impressed as I am with these statistics, I am still bothered by withholding puppies from new homes til they are 3, 4 months of age, but that's a different issue all together, isn't it LOL? Good information from all, thanks!!

Blitzen, I congradulate you on doing some research. Bravo. Breeders need to get beyond this mental barrier of placing puppies beyond 8 weeks of age. Many breeders from various other breeds will NOT place a puppy under 3 months of age. Again, it's easy enough to research. Puppies handle transition and travel much better when they are older, besides...it gives the breeder more time to properly evaluate the litter. I think the whole business about having to be placed by 8 weeks is a load of bunk. Talk to any of the "world class" breeders out there right now who are sitting on a boatload of puppies born in April, May and June who are still sitting around in kennels waiting to be placed. All of those puppies should be xrayed screened if they are over 12 weeks of age. Question any breeder who neglects to do this if you are considering a purchase of any of these "Exceptional" puppies with the obscene price tags.

Points well taken, M. Carter. After 35 years in dogs, I continue to learn LOL. I got my current GSD at 8 weeks and he's a bundle of nerves and not suitable for much of anything other than being a liability. He was socialized, OB trained, a puppy kindergarten grad and evaluated by a very well qualified canine behaviorist. Her diagnosis - a too bright smart ass with excellent bite inhibition that will live the rest of his life on a tough love, nothing in life is free program. Maybe I should have left the breeder keep him a few more months LOL.

One very important thing to keep in mind for breeder and buyer is that some antibiotics will attack the cartalege in the soft forming bones in puppies. This CAN cause an otherwise normal hipped puppy (geneticly) to end up with HD. Debby

Well, well, well. My point is: Why don't wait? Is it so very important to know this in such a early point??? Only for the comersial ? Of course there are many reasons for checking a dog, but if there are no visual signs - my opinon is that we shall wait. I do really believe that it's more important to look at the possible reasons for HD - and not only focusin on keeping a quaranti. For too many breeders the possible reasons for the problem is secondary. This is for me only bla,bla,bla wihch may be the reason for small results all over the world.

Again Sbstein, please do some research. If you read the scientific studies on the subject you will begin to understand the condition and transmission much better. I will not go into the studies on this message board since I believe people need to actually complete the research themselves if they are truely interested. Otherwise it's just spoonfeeding and we have far to many people in the breed who have built their breeding programs from spoonfed bunk. Why not wait? Why should someone wait when the technology is available to spare a family and a dog from absorbing thousands of dollars in unnecessary surgery and a lifetime of pain medication not to mention the emotional pain the family suffers. Why not wait? Why should someone who plans to compete in sport or is raising out their future stud dog or brood bitch want to wait when the technology is available to screen for this condition which will eliminate the dog from any breeding or sport consideration. why put 1-2 years of growth, showing and training into a dog that will never fulfill the owners dreams resulting in just another expensive house pet? There is a discussion on this very board from someone who waited until the dog was 14 months old before xraying the hips. They can't get those 14 months back not to mention all the expenses they have incurred for training, showing etc.

The last information I read stated one cannot do accurate hip rays until 4 months of age. I also read (GSDReview) that OFA claims 91% accuracy in *predicting* future hip status, at 4 months. At 3 months and younger there is only a cartilagous pelvis and hip area. The lack of calcification prevents accurate x rays. OFA's evaluation at 4 months is only a prediction. If one sees subluxation in a pup of this age, this can be rated poorly, yet still a normal hip at 2 years. If one sees bony changes at 4 months, the hips will be bad at two years as well. The preliminary xrays are read by only 1 radiologist, vs 3 radiologisits at 2 yrs. Believe it or not, in my experience, this makes the preliminary OFAs even more accurate (in house radiologists do the prelims). I have seen clearly displastic dogs get OFA GOOD certification! 3 outside radiologists made the same mistake...Dr Keller (OFA in house radiologist) upon review of the same xrays said the dog was moderately displastic. For reference, I placed the dog in a pet home with a spay agreement. If offering a puppy under the described initial post, an OFA prelim evaluated pup would go home with no hip guarantee, and just a copy of the evaluation, a quote from OFA regarding the accuracy of the *prediction*, and advice about rearing pups to promote normal hips. Of course this pup would have a higher price tag than an 8 wk pup. For reference, OFA's claims of accuracy for prelims was in an article comparing the accuracy of Penn-hips with OFA. Warmest Regards, Sue-Ann :-)