The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 79

Joanro - Working ability is developed by man not structure.  Incorrect anatomical problems can inhibit the dogs by creating problems in reach and drive.  For example dogs that are too straight in their front assembly will lack sufficient reach.  Dogs that are over angulated in the hindquarters are prone to unsoundness and possible injury.  If there is insufficient rear anglation then the dog will short step. If this is coupled with the straight front assembly the dog will expend energy and cover less ground in each stride when compared with a properly constructed dog.

Mackenzie

There can be no ability to work without structure which affords the ability to utilize the training. I have seen show dogs that could not stand up on their hind legs. My dogs, from my breedings, can walk on their hind legs, flat foot leap over the side boards into the bed of the FUV with no prob. But I don't breed for the show ring, I select for athletic ability to afford the best able bodied dogs to utilize their training for work.
Let's agree to disagree on the correct structure for the working breed.

@Joan Nice advertisement. But really all your post proves that in your blissful  ignorance you benefited from something others did when they generated  Furo by using breeding in male line.  And now you boast and  blissfully believe that it was your breeding  genius. That is truly pathetic.  How  sad that you are unable to see. But thanks anyway since  in fact you only confirmed  what  am saying. You are the one who benefits   from breeding in male line and do not give it a  credit and actually do not even see  that that is the reason  for your success. 

Sancta simplicitas

Prager Hans

Too much emphasis is placed on male lines and the the stud dog .. I never look at the Male line without looking at the female line and the dam's bloodline first.  A lot of so called male lines are really more about the females .. I have seen female GSD that could be bred to a poodle and produce IPO dogs.  All great dogs owe their greatness in at least 60% of the cases to the dam or put another way 60% of what any GSD turns out to be from conception to 8 weeks is all about the mother and 40% or less is from the sire.  As far as the decline of the GSD goes it is all a bunch of hogwash.  My dogs are just fine and I can breed dogs that are too good for the humans that supposedly want them.  If there is any decline in the GSD world it is in the people who own and train the GSD, not the dogs.  The sport and show people are the absolute worst!!  They look at the latest Sieger or Siegerin from whatever stupid contest and breed to the " dog of the day ".  As far as Joan and her breeding program goes I admire her work.  She has taken the imported stock that she started with and crafted them into some fine dogs now in their third generation from the imported stock.  Her von Ron dogs are every bit as good and probably better than what she started with and at some point you must give her credit for what she has done.  Joan has not repeatedly imported dogs and just used other peoples work .. she has made her own family of dogs based on some breeding that I for one did not always comprehend but it has worked and I think she deserves credit for not following the latest fashion trends such as breeding her dogs to the latest Dutch Tom or the latest BSP Harry.  Some want to pretend that the 1965 Mustang was the best auto ever but the reality is that there are dozens of cars made in 2015 that are far superior.  And so it is with the GSD .. the 1965 models were good but dozens of GSD being produced in the present are as good or better.

Quote - “The overriding factor is that Character seems to be defined by bite work and aggression.”

 

NO! Sorry, you are misunderstanding.

 

Character is best evaluated by bitework. NOT defined; but rather evaluated. That includes the entire process of bitework from beginning to end and not just the finished product seen in a video, Trial, demo, etc.

 

We can get a general idea about personality or temperament traits by observing routine day-to-day activities. On the other hand it takes pressure of some kind, extraordinary circumstances if you will, to really get a character assessment.

 

Dogs are not people, but to help with the concept let's anthropomorphous a bit. How hungry will an “Honest” man become before he steals someone else food? Will he use his starving children as an excuse to steal, yet feed himself first? Until the pressures of hunger and desperation are present we cannot truly evaluate a man's character. Yes, training will come into play regarding what choices are made and/or where the breaking points are. Again, dogs are not people and we cannot make good comparisons but the point is that it takes pressure to evaluate character.

 

The ability to evaluate through pressure is limited by practicality. Employers could test the honesty of job applicants by starving their families. Clearly that is neither practical nor humane.

 

Using pressure to evaluate needs to be breed appropriate. If you wanted to examine the character of Labrador Retrievers we would pick the most challenging or stressful thing the dog is bred to do. In the case of Labs it's not bitework. The pressure of actual or simulated hunting is more appropriate. Is the dog intimidated by a large, angry goose? Does he remain clear headed in spite of the shooting, chaos and excitement? Can he sit in a blind for hours? Does he shut down or loose drive in the cold?

 

Someone who wanted to evaluate a Lab's character should not just look at the finished product, he/she should also have in depth knowledge of what it took to train the dog. Then a reasonably complete picture of the dogs character can be seen.

 

The German Shepherd Dog is a general purpose “Second best at everything” dog. He can (or should) perform bitework. Taking into consideration practicalities, bitework is the most stressful venue for evaluation. Bitework applies pressures you cannot generate through Flyball, competitive OB, tracking, etc, etc, etc. If you use bitework as an evaluation tool and observe the dog through the entire training process; virtually all of a dogs character should be reveled to you.

 

I do think that some people focus on the finished product rather than evaluating through the entire process. This is not the case for everyone. Some people post videos of the finished product or talk about the end result for the sake of simplicity. The finished product does have significance but it doesn't define character.

 

If you believe that some people are mistakenly viewing the finished product as the sole means of defining character, then we have some common ground. If you simply do not believe we can obtain a clear and relatively complete character evaluation through bitework then we are in disagreement.

Hans, I'll ignore your insults and only speak to the inaccuracies of your post. The females were not of jiri's breedings, in fact, neither was Furo. But the females that were bred to my dog were not of any line breeding on my Furo son, not at all. But they were chosen because of their strong nerves, and impeccable character. And yes, I do take credit for the offspring, being as I bred them and of outside breedings, was able to give accurate description of my male, because I raised him from a small puppy, trained him and titled him. Unlike your dogs, which you aquire already raised trained and if titled, done by others. My good breedings have nothing whatsoever to do with your flawed 'in-line breeding' theory.
Since you have been touting the success of jiri's breeding program you attribute to your chart, how about listing all the successful breedings you've done over the past, what'd you say, 47 years. Don't bother us with listing the dogs you helped sell from jinopo, but give us the names of the dogs you bred ( not imported already pregnant), with your kennel name on the dogs ( excluding the five male pups which I bred andyou got from, but you changed their registration to reflect your kennel name.)
By the way, I've only been breeding gsd for 13 years, compared to you breeding gsd for 47 years according to you....so let us see all your dogs that you actually did the breedings, with your kennel name which made it beyond pet homes utilizing your chart. After all, as you like to say, proof is in the pudding.

Adhahn, your post exactly says the same I tried to explain over and over again here - I gave up.
People who train their dogs, do understand, people who don´t train their dogs, do not understand - but these people will not start to train ...

Following up on the point Mac is trying to highlight but no body seems wanting to listen.

Our breed, the German Shepherd Dog has a written standard which covers the creation purpose, character and structure. So PLEASE, we are not creating a new breed and it isn't upto each one of you to decide what is important and what is not, what comes first and what comes last and what can be forgotten about because it has no use for the breed.

The biggest mistake you commit is when you say structure is of secondary importance or when you say work ability is not necessary.

The breed is about structure and charaacter simultaneously. What makes the breed different is its structure, work ability and versatility not only one or two of them, that is what makes the breed different and that is what made it the most successful breed in history of breeds.

It looks like the real problem behind seperation and disagreement is the people who disregard the standard and think of the GSD as what they believe is important, not important, more important, comes first or comes last. You either believe in the breed and its standard or you don't, when you don't then you have no right claiming any better. Once we agree a GSD is to be evaluated based on the breed standard as a whole, then we can agree on what the GSD is, what it should be capable of doing, how it should look like, is the breed in good status, are their shortcomings, who is doing better than who, other wise we will run in circles with no direction and no base to stand on firmly and commence forward.

My Goodness, some people are giving opinions as if we are talking about an imaginary dog that has no Written Standard for structure and characteristics.

The German Shepherd Dog, whose methodical breeding was started in 1899 after the foundation of the society, had been bred from the central German and southern German breeds of the herding dogs existing at that time with the ultimate objective of creating a working dog inclined to high achievements. In order to achieve this objective, the breed standard of the German Shepherd Dog was determined, which relates to the physical constitution as well as the traits and characteristics.

 

General appearance

 

The German Shepherd Dog is medium-size, slightly elongated, powerful and well-muscled, with dry bone and firm overall structure.

 

Important dimensional ratios

 

The height at the withers amounts to 60 cm to 65 cm for male dogs and 55 cm to 60 cm for female dogs. The trunk length exceeds the dimension at the height at the withers by about 10 – 17 %.

 

Character

 

The German Shepherd Dog must be well-balanced (with strong nerves) in terms of character, self-assured, absolutely natural and (except for a stimulated situation) good-natured as well as attentive and willing to please. He must possess instinctive behaviour, resilience and self-assurance in order to be suitable as a companion, guard, protection, service and herding dog.

 

Head

 

The head is wedge-shaped, and in proportion to the body size (length about 40 % at the height at the withers), without being plump or too elongated, dry in the overall appearance and moderately broad between the ears.

 

Seen from the front and side, the forehead is only slightly arched and without any or with only a slightly indicated middle furrow.

 

The ratio from the cranial region to the facial region is 50 % to 50 %. The width of the cranial region more or less corresponds to the length of the cranial region. The cranial region (seen from above) tapers evenly towards the nasal bridge with gradually sloping, not sharply depicted stop in the wedge-shaped facial region (foreface) of the head. Upper and lower jaws are powerfully developed.

 

The nasal dorsum is straight, any dip or bulge is undesirable. The lips are taut, close well and are of dark colouring.

 

The nose must be black.

 

The teeth must be strong, healthy and complete (42 teeth according to the dental formula). The German Shepherd Dog has a scissor bite, i.e. the incisors must interlock like scissors, whereby the incisors of the upper jaw overlap those of the lower jaw. Occlusal overlay, overbite and retrusive occlusion as well as larger spaces between the teeth (gaps) are faulty. The straight dental ridge of the incisors is also faulty. The jaw bones must be strongly developed so that the teeth can be deeply embedded in the dental ridge.

 

 

The eyes are of medium size, almond-shaped, slightly slanted and not protruding. The colour of the eyes should be as dark as possible. Light, piercing eyes are undesirable since they impair the dog’s impression.

 

Ears

 

The German Shepherd Dog has erect ears of medium size, which are carried upright and aligned (not drawn-in laterally); they are pointed and with the auricle facing forward.

 

Tipped ears and drooping ears are faulty. Ears carried rearward when moving or in relaxed position are not faulty.

 

Neck

 

The neck should be strong, well-muscled and without loose neck skin (dewlap). The angulation towards the trunk (horizontal) amounts to approx. 45 %.

 

Body

 

The upper line runs from the base of the neck via the high, long withers and via the straight back towards the slightly sloping croup, without visible interruption. The back is moderately long, firm, strong and well-muscled. The loin is broad, short, strongly developed and well-muscled. The croup should be long and slightly sloping (approx 23° to the horizontal) and the upper line should merge into the base of the tail without interruption.

 

The chest should be moderately broad, the lower chest as long and pronounced as possible. The depth of the chest should amount to approx. 45 % to 48 % of the height at the withers.

 

The ribs should feature a moderate curvature; a barrel-shaped chest is just as faulty as flat ribs.

 

The tail extends at least to the hock, but not beyond the middle of the hind pastern. It has slightly longer hair on the underside and is carried hanging downward in a gentle curve, whereby in a state of excitement and in motion it is raised and carried higher, but not beyond the horizontal. Operative corrections are forbidden.

 

Limbs

 

Forequarters

 

The forelimbs are straight when seen from all sides, and absolutely parallel when seen from the front.

 

Shoulder blade and upper arm are of equal length, and firmly attached to the trunk by means of powerful musculature. The angulation from shoulder blade and upper arm is ideally 90°, but generally up to 110°.

 

The elbows may not be turned out either while standing or moving, and also not pushed in. The forearms are straight when seen from all sides, and absolutely parallel to each other, dry and firmly muscled. The pastern has a length of approx. 1/3 of the forearm, and has an angle of approx. 20° to 22° to the forearm. A slanted pastern (more than 22°) as well as a steep pastern (less than 20°) impairs the suitability for work, particularly the stamina.

 

The paws are rounded, well-closed and arched; the soles are hard, but not brittle. The nails are strong and of dark colour.

 

Hindquarters

 

The position of hind legs is slightly backwards, whereby the hind limbs are parallel to each other when seen from the rear. Upper leg and lower leg are of approximately the same length and form an angle of approx. 120°; the legs are strong and well-muscled.

 

The hocks are strongly developed and firm; the hind pastern stands vertically under the hock.

 

The paws are closed, slightly arched; the pads are hard and of dark colour; the nails are strong, arched and also of dark colour.

 

Gait

 

The German Shepherd Dog is a trotter. The limbs must be coordinated in length and angulations so that the dog can shift the hindquarters towards the trunk without any essential change of the top line and can reach just as far with the forelimbs. Any tendency towards over-angulation of the hindquarters reduces the stability and the stamina, and thereby the working ability. Correct body proportions and angulations results in a gait that is far-reaching and flat over the ground which conveys the impression of effortless forward movements. The head pushed forward and the slightly raised tail result in a consistent, smooth trot showing a gently curved, uninterrupted upper line from the ear tips over the neck and back to the end of the tail.

 

Skin

 

The skin is (loosely) fitting, but without forming any folds.

 

Coat

 

Hair texture

 

Hair:

 

The German Shepherd Dog is bred in the hair varieties double coat and long and harsh outer coat – both with undercoat.

 

Double coat:

 

The guard hair should be as dense as possible, particularly harsh and close fitting: short on the head, including the inside of the ears, short on the front side of the legs, paws and toes, some-what longer and more strongly covered in hair on the neck. On the back side of the legs the hair extends to the carpal joint or the hock; it forms moderate ‘trousers’ on the back side of the haunches.

 

Long and harsh outer coat:

 

The guard hair should be long, soft and not close fitting, with tufts on the ears and legs, bushy trousers and bushy tail with downward formation of tuft. Short on the head, including the inside of the ears, on the front side of the legs, on the paws and toes, somewhat longer and more strongly covered in hair on the neck, almost forming a mane. On the back side of the legs the hair extends to the carpal joint or the hock and forms clear trousers on the back side of the haunches.

 

Colours

Colours are black with reddish-brown, brown and yellow to light grey markings; single-coloured black, grey with darker shading, black saddle and mask. Unobtrusive, small white marks on chest as well as very light colour on insides are permissible, but not desirable. The tip of the nose must be black in all colours. Dogs with lack of mask, light to piercing eye colour, as well as with light to whitish markings on the chest and the insides, pale nails and red tip of tail are considered to be lacking in pigmentation. The undercoat shows a light greyish tone.  The colour white is not allowed.

Size/weight

 

Male dogs:

Height at the withers: 60 cm to 65 cm

Weight: 30 kg to 40 kg

 

Female dogs:

Height at the withers: 55 cm to 60 cm

Weight: 22 kg to 32 kg

 

Testicles

 

Male dogs should have two obviously normally developed testicles which are completely in the scrotum.

 

Faults

 

Any deviation from the aforementioned points should be considered as a fault whose evaluation should be in exact proportion to the degree of deviation.

 

Serious faults

 

Deviations from the above-described breed characteristics which impair the working capability.

 

Faulty ears: ears set too low laterally, tipped ears, inward constricted ears, ears not firm

 

Considerable pigment deficiencies.

 

Severely impaired overall stability.

 

Dental faults:

 

All deviations from scissor bite and dental formula insofar as it does not involve eliminating faults (see the following)

 

Eliminating faults

 

1. Dogs with weak character and weak nerves which bite
2. Dogs with proven "severe hip dysplasia"
3. Monorchid or cryptorchid dogs as well as dogs with clearly dissimilar or atrophied testicles
4. Dogs with disfiguring ears or tail faults

    

5. Dogs with malformations
6. Dogs with dental faults, with lack of:

   1 premolar 3 and another tooth, or

   1 canine tooth, or

   1 premolar 4, or

   1 molar 1 or molar 2, or

   a total of 3 teeth or more

7. Dogs with jaw deficiencies:

   Overshot by 2 mm and more,

   undershot,

   level bite in the entire incisor region

8. Dogs with oversize or undersize by more than 1 cm
9. Albinism
10. White hair colour (also with dark eyes and nails)
11. Long Straight Topcoat without undercoat
12. Long-haired (long, soft guard hair without undercoat, mostly parted in the middle of the back, tufts on the ears and legs and on the tail)

If a breeder can not produce a GSD like that described in the standard, structurally, character and work ability then as kindly as I can say, he or she is not producing a correct GSD.

A GSD which is correct in angulation, has beautiful coat and color, can gait efficiently but can not work and needs its owner to protect him or her that is not a correct GSD.

A GSD that bite well, protects well, you name it, but has straight shoulder and no proper angulation in the rear is not a correct GSD, no matter what Gustav, Joan, Prager and Duke claim the opposite. Just a friendly opinion from some one who learned importance of character from you but see you turning a blind eye on importance of standard as a complete package, not only bite.