The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 78

ok now hans, with all respect, this is the part that I disagree with when you say

 now know that if I have these dogs in my pedigree I  can expect the same

 

when you breed with dogs with these qualitys and genes you can, only based on paper you can not

duke - Your command of a V50 dog is flawed. You cannot see,or, accept that such a dog can be so low down in the rankings based on something other than character.

I accept that what you do for a living is for a specialised market and for that purpose the client is only interested in whether it will do the job that you provide the dog for and nothing to do with whether the dog fits the breed standard. I also accept that it is mainly your choice that show line dogs are not used. It is also interesting to note that you probably test a thousand dogs a year and find a failure rate of approximately 80% (800). Why did so many dogs fail? From the things that you write I assume that the dogs are all from working bloodlines.

For your clients who take only GSD's it is their choice for whatever reason.

For the majority of people who come to this database from all over the world they are not producing dogs commercially in the same way or for the same purposes that you are. With this in mind then I would suggest that the comparison is as different as chalk and cheese. The majority of readers are only interested in producing stock as near to the breed standard as they can. I do agree with you on one thing and that is the show dogs are based on opinion whereas the competition dogs performance is score related and, for me, a better way of assessment.

I also think that the working lines need to pay attention to structure and in doing so it will not affect a dogs working ability. The work ability comes from the naturally inherited character and as modified by man in the dogs development.

"in many countries wild dogs and street dogs survive, the ones who cant will die, natural selection that will result in smart healthy and hardy do". Your words. Some street dogs are survivors but because of their way of life how many live to old age, have no transmitable health problems and, also, not all of these dogs are producers.

　

Mackenzie

Another important component of the gsd character which is neglected by many breeders, is impeccable nerves. Without strong nerves, all the rest is useless as a working dog.

Duke :I must say that the system of lines as described can work in a closed and controlled breedingprogram such as Pohranicni straze was and now at Jinopo

Hans: FYI The system works any time you implement it. Especially if you rescue it by doing it for atr least 2 generations. 

I throw this one at you too. It also works this way. For example you want to increase prey in your 2nd line. Thus you cross it with a typical representative of the 3rd line ( Klodo v Boxberg) : Versatile, High  prey drive, high endurance, no major issues, ( grim, orry, zoran....)  then you pick an perfect representative of the 2nd line now with higher prey and than you breed it back to 2nd line and that is then  the foundation for your - Duke's line of dogs you like. Now if you start losing the prey from your 2nd line then you do it again. It is an endless well. Not if people do not do and do not understand this then they du not know what they will get. And that is the result of statements like:" Well he is a great dog but he does not produce himself. 

 Or you can go and see your dog has not characteristic of his male line but you like those. So  you determine which  line represent those characteristics Like your dog is 2nd line but has tremendous prey and non of the characteristics of 2nd line.  So you look and see that the dog has many dogs from 3rd line there. Thus you now know which dogs are the ones influencing your dog. Thus even so your dog's male line is 2nd  and you like 2nd but do not care for crazy prey, then you can go back to 2nd and will recover the 2nd line characteristics. Now you have pups let say 10 of them and 6 are typical for 2nd line . You pick th3e best one from those 6 . the one which has the characteristic of high natural protectiveness of 2nd and moderate prey . And that is you next stud. Yiou breed him to bitch which is 2nd line and you recoverer your 2nd line. But "tomorrow" you  decide that you want more prey so you go back to  3rd line ( hight prey) and breed to that. Now you have some 3nd lines in your dog already thus you will probably get higher prey in next litter. 

 Anyway take it or leave it. 

  

prager hans

Hans I liked Furo, I was the first to breed his son Ex jirkova Dvora, now Ex gives us an interesting example

He bred my female(czech) , Jiri bred to him(czech) , he was bred to a showline and he was bred to a west line dog

all these pups are Furo grandkids by fathersline, how much similarity do you expect in these four litters

Amen Joan...without nerve as your basis, you cannot speak of anything else as it does not matter, end of!

Duke there are no absolutes. But that is how it works with high probability. If you use this sytem you are greatelly increasing those probabilities.Otherwise you are almost blind especially as far as consitency of the litter goes.  

Mac, I will tell you why many fail

many malinois fai because of nerves, also many have high preydrive but they dond search with nose but with eyes

many GSD I test are from famous sires, WUSV winners championshipwinners etc, many are not good enough in nerves,no civil wont bite without equipment,

many have problems on slippery floors dark rooms etc

and finally a good percentage fails medical test  see quite a bit of spondylose in malis now, extra vertebrea in GSD and bad hips and elbows from which I believe quite a few are not genetic but environmental

"I also think that the working lines need to pay attention to structure and in doing so it will not affect a dogs working ability. The work ability comes from the naturally inherited character and as modified by man in the dogs development."

Mac, the structure absolutely does affect "working ability". That is why the gsd, being a working breed, is to be Moderate in structure, with no extremes in either structure or temperament. Structure is one of the limiting factors of the show dogs, aside from character to work.

My Furo son, who is out of Puci, produced an apprehension LE k9 who himself was out of a mixed DDR, PS, wgsl female. I also, from that male's littermate brother, produced an apprehension LE k9 FEMALE, who was linebred on Puci. My Furo son also produced a dog that recently graduated from LE K9 accadamy, who is out of a wgwl female. I have a litter of great grandpups of my Furo son now, that are being prepared for LEK9 (2), three for IPO, one assistance dog, four are being raised as family dogs. I did not need to look at a chart or memorize or in any other way refer to some 'lines' chart, to know what to expect from any of these breedings...but I did and do test my dogs and know their character implicitly.