The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 77

mac my command of V50 dog is flawed, really ?? the only place were showlines are used by police and army today is in hollywood movies, I provide dogs for law enfocement professionally, I place around 200 a year probably test a thousand, let me enlight you  ZERO showlinedogs  50 to 60 % german shepherds 20 to 25 %  GSD and/or Mali mix and maybe 20 % malinois,

several departments in USA and victoria police australia to name a few only take GSD

so I guess the workingline GSD isnot doing that bad at all

the line you and Ibrahim pull up all the time that the workingline needs structural improvement is bogus, anything closer to showline structure means loosing workingability

But they are not survival characteristics for a man made breed. As far as I know, the GSD has never needed to survive in the wild like a pack of wolves. It has always been artificially bred, breeding stock select by humans. If/when those instincts are missing it's because of human error. That takes us back to the very basic survival characteristic of being able to breed naturally; that's all that is left today of survival characteristics in the GSD and if breeders continue to circumvent that rule of nature by using all sorts of heroics to get bitches bred that too will go missing in time. The proof that other instincts are not survival characterisitcs is that there are plenty of GSD's alive that don't have them. Some of them have been produced by natural mating, some only due to human intervention. If they were living in the wild surviving on their own, they wouldn't survive long enough to reproduce those faults.

Hunting, flight, territorial, pack instincts are the results (or not) of human/artificial selection. None are necessary for a dog to survive in today's world. Dogs can live and thrive without being able to kill their own food, guard their own territory, life harmoniously in a pack, but if they lack the only survival characteristic of not being able to mate, it ends there.

in many countries wild dogs and street dogs survive, the ones who cant will die, natural selection that will result in smart healthy and hardy dogs

What are you talking about, Student? Devices for doing what? Positive reinforcement? I asked how one thinks a foundation dog would react to different scenarios. Not if a shepherd/trainer used them. We all know they did and do.

'The proof that other instincts are not survival characterisitcs is that there are plenty of GSD's alive that don't have them.'
And those are the dogs that are lacking gsd character...which the topic of this thred.

Hunting, flight, [l said FIGHT, not flight], territorial, pack instincts are the results (or not) of human/artificial selection. None are necessary for a dog to survive in today's world. Dogs can live and thrive without being able to kill their own food, guard their own territory, life harmoniously in a pack, but if they lack the only survival characteristic of not being able to mate, it ends there.

You obviously the missed the whole point of the need for breeders of correct character of the gsd to select for those instincts. This is not about whether or not a dog can survive in today's world, it is about the character of the breed to be a proper gsd, which is supposed to be a Working breed.
There are too many gsd without these instincts and they are the very ones lacking workability due to lack of proper gsdcharacter. There are many breeds which are selected to NOT have the mentioned instincts because they don't make as good a living imitation of a stuffed toy.

Mackenzie- I didn't say breeders do not understand character.  I disagreed strictly based on your view that you need to breed a litter to understand character. It is my OPINION that old heads who have been around and share knowledge of their observations of dogs/handling dogs/talking pedigrees/drawing conclusions/observing traits etc would have more of a grasp of character in GSD.  I think of Gustav when I say this.  

My pup was from a first time breeding of sire and dam.  I didn't find my breeder to be knocking on my door wondering about my dogs character.  So take $$ out of the equation, reputation, and pride and think how great the breed could be if everyone shared their knowledge of what they have learned about each individual dog they have experience with.  I include breeders here that are in competition. And btw we are on the same page regarding families having a few breeding dogs and handling them for awhile and the reasons for that.  I think you misunderstood my point. 

 

Duke, not as many street dogs dying as there were, Rescues are rehoming them and bringing others to the US to save them. I just saw a program about living in Granada (I think) where any dogs freely roam the street breeding and eating mostly garbage. Now there is a big move to save them. As if we don't have enough unwanted dogs in the US now, we're getting more to re-home - "don't breed as long as there are dogs in rescue" is their mantra. Wonderful, eh?...... 

BTW, all the dogs there look alike too. Too much linebreeding?

I guess I misunderstood, Joanro, I'll get out of this thread now and let it get back on track.

blitz; A dog from the 1900 on a table? depends on the person stimulating. A dog from 1800 with a shock collar? results depend on the person pushing the buttons. a dog from 200 BC getting flanked? I bet he would have bit that nomad if he or she did not move their hand quickly. Dogs do what is good for dog today and yesterday. May man do what is good for dog! 

Duke: than you can lock in these traits by linebreeding BUT ONLY if you use dogs for breeding that carry these same traits, not with just any puppy from that line

Hans: Duke first of all if you are smart enough to breed in  male line then you do it because you require certain traits. Thus- indeed _ you breed these traits. But do not forget that that was what started the line. If people liked, let say,  Hettel  they bred crap out of Hettel.  And lo and behold  they saw it was good. Thus the progeny of hettel was in demand and there were great numbers of them. Many bred to lesser females but still good due to the fact that Hettel was breed improver.  If he would not be breed improver if he would be only  breed maintainer or destroyer or  improver if  only bred to narrow spectrum of females, then the line would die out as it died   hundreds of times with other not as significantly dominant studs. But Hettel was strong and his progeny was strong and was continually bred for that reason and it kept producing strong until today.  Any dog who would not produced as strong dominance( genetic dominance) would not be bred. Thus genetically this dominance was strongly fixed in the line.  I am not talking about characteristic of  traits I am talking abut the genetic dominance.  That is practical fact. Those characteristics of Hettel's line ( 2nd line ) are well known today. They are usually sable ( not always) , dry( no lose skin),  high anger level during protection, great trackers, lesser pin point obedience, higher dominance . Such typical representatives high scores of generations later are Pico Bret Bett ZVV3 IPO3, FH1, Zps2 , ZPO1.  

 Furo Kamos ZVV1 ZPO1

 And more curently Zen z Jirkova dvoraZVV2 IPO3

 They would fulfill every aspect of the characteristics of the line ( except Zen's color but who cares about color.) . 

 I now know that if I have these dogs in my pedigree I  can expect the same and do get the same quite consistently from Zen and his son Orion especially if the female is also from 2nd line and even so if she does not have the more recent dogs in her pedigree which i personally like since that way we avoid genetic bottle neck. 

 Prager Hans