The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 76

I didn't say they couldn't do it, I asked if they could. I don't know does anyone - really?

@mackenzie-  you stated that for one to understand character needs to breed a litter.  I'm no breeder, however I disagree. What about those that have seen countless dogs where they train where pedigrees are shared as well as knowledge?  those people in their old age :) are the most experienced reagarding character. Not breeders 

stephanitz allegedly preferred families with a couple breeding dogs in order to facilitate daily contact. The dogs would be in the same hands for a long time while observing traits.   My breeder doesnt call me asking me how my dog is doing.  Maybe if they did they would have a better idea on what sire and dam produced.   

Also stephanitz was an advocate for putting GSD in military or LE.  When he says a GSD should have a strong instinctive nature toward protectiveness wouldn't this incorporate bite work and courage testing? You seem confused why many are discussing bite work (I'm from the US of A by the way).

this strong instinctive nature of protectiveness along with obedience, speed, and endurance was needed to keep 200+ sheep under control.  

Lastly, I have read that German Breeders in the past would take a newborn litter and place them away from the female.  The ones that found their way to the female were kept- others were culled 

 

Duke - If you have read all of my posts you should by now realize that I am not solely into show dogs but dogs from all sides. It is fair to say that the show breeders have made a better stab at trying to breed to the breed standard than the working side. You will also see in my posts that for me Character is the first consideration in a dog. If the dog fails there then I am longer interested in going any further and therefore I am not contributing to the decline as you quite wrongly suggest.  Many years ago when I judged the breed I placed at the back of the class if any dog that displayed any weakness of character.

What I actually said regarding your third point is “that serious breeders PROBABLY have more litters”. You are correct when you say that 99% of pet producing dogs will not go into “working jobs” ,however, neither do 100% of dogs bred by working line breeders go into “working jobs”. You have to understand that not all of the dogs produced from either side will be suitable for full time working dogs. FACT.

Another point that you fail to appreciate is the there has ALWAYS been a pet market. Your comment “ only the dogs that didnot measure up to top standarts were sold as guarddog/pet” but on the other hand you seem to be suggesting that a guard dog including it’s instincts is a working dog.

I have noted your comments regarding your own dogs and particularly the remark “bitches take care of their own pups, throw up their food for the pups and eat barf , males are natural breeders”. Are we to assume from your comment that you do not wean your puppies? Do you keep them on the mother’s milk bar until they are ready to leave your tender care?

Of course males are natural breeders and that applies to every species and that is why the males have more offspring than females. To post a video of dogs mating proves nothing and does not add to the discussion on the topic we are trying to discuss on this thread.

Your comment regarding dogs placed V50 is also flawed. There are dogs that have good characters and can work if called upon but because of not quite being anatomically correct they do not warrant a higher place. The dogs looks are based on anatomical construction as set out in the breed standard.

Mackenzie

but, but, I've got $xxxx.xx dollars tied up this beautiful V rated sch. titled GSD.  She is too narrow in vaginal tract to breed naturally so I need to A.I. She missed a couple of times so I probably need to put her on a small dose of thyroid meds. Probably need to plan on c-section because she is so narrow. But if all goes well I should make a bundle.

Some of you guys just don't understand what it takes to produce the GSD we have today!

To play devil's advocate I'll ask - How would one of the foundation dogs react to being back tied on a table, or flanked, corrected with a shock collar, scale an A frame, bite a sleeve, take down the bad guy? We can speculate, but we don't know unless there are some records from the foundation breeders addressing those things. Maybe there are, if so I've never seen them. How many of today's dogs could tend a flock of a few hundred sheep keeping them on the graze?

I'm guessing there are few alive today who would be able to shed any light on any of that; Kintzel probably.  

Workingline breeders use repro vets and AI's too.

instinct; Wolves have it! Ever see a wolf or wolf hybred in dog training? Not a pretty picture. Instincts which allow themselves to be shaped for mankind are what man has bred into the foundation working stock. Training them makes the dog's responce more dependable. Unnatural selection by man promotes good dogs or bad dogs. Training of behaviors more involved  than heel, sit, stay, come will give a more complete image of the dog's worth. More people training with eyes wide open to the inherent abilitys will make the breed better. Training  of scenairos with LE imitation, will wake up the breeder's to the need for correct instincts. 

Instincts- the ability to breed, and produce offspring that can survive without human intenvention is the only survival characteristic this breed has or has ever had as far as I can  see.

How about hunting instinct? Tracking required for Search and rescue, drug detection, apprehension.... All are based on hunting instinct manifested through prey/hunt drive.
Fight instinct used in defense drive and prey drive for protection.
Territoriality, an instinct necessary for guarding human family, LE handler, flock of sheep.
Pack instinct, necessary for bidability, trainability.

blitz; You named a lot of training devices. Why does the shepherd carry a big stick? to speak with a soft voice?. i met a German who had found a leather strap with barb wire woven into it in the barn of a long dead Shepherd from his area. He thought it was from the 1920 ro 1930s. Was this evidence of positive reinforcement? Our dogs ansestors live and thrived with positive and negative training. I would think that tools of complusion have been around since man tamed his first dog or horse. Now, how a tool can become a torture piece is another subject.can we get 100 pages today?

Templars - To suggest in the last sentence in the first paragraph of your posts that breeders do not understand character is ludicrous.

The reason v Stephanitz preferred families to have a couple of breeding dogs is that each dog would have received much more individual attention. Please read my first post on this thread and you will note that that is the very point that I was making.

The founder of the breed was right in saying what you have said regarding military dogs and as I have said earlier in this thread the bite work and courage testing is an important aspect of character assessment and, I have also said, that although it is important it should not be at the expense of other aspects of character assessment. I am in no way confused.

The last paragraph is just pure rubbish. Even if puppies did not find their way back to the mothers based on one test the breeder would have recognised they still had a commercial value without being detrimental to the breed.

Mackenzie