breeding snafu? Help! - Page 4

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luvdemdogs

by luvdemdogs on 31 August 2009 - 01:08

Sorry Darryl, I think you're incorrect.  Agouti is a color scheme located on the A locus.  It is not the locus.  Recessive blacks are also located at the A locus.  There are different letters used for sable but technically, I believe the "ay" is sable and "aw"  is agouti - which may show up as a wolf grey and be called "sable" in the german shepherd world.   It looks like the german shepherd world uses it's own preferences for language (just as it does with the redundant word "dog" at the end of the name, LOL).  Realistically, all dogs should have the same language because it's all genes, but it seems we call agouti dogs sables.  I know I always have c alled them sables, but have only just started studying the genetics behind coloration because I was interested in the white and dilute phenomena.  Agouti refers to banded hairs - that is what shows up in the wolf color sables.

luvdemdogs

by luvdemdogs on 31 August 2009 - 01:08

In terms of dominance, it appears that clear sable "ay" is dominant over the wild sable "aw" which in turn is dominant over the black and tan "at" which is dominent over the recessive pure black "aa". 

It's all totally fascinating.... 


by fzarkowski on 31 August 2009 - 02:08

Oh, I wish the name of the kennel had not been put up.  I don't know what happened, and if she turns out to be out of these two, I will let you know.  The issue is being taken care of, so there is no longer a problem.  All I can say is they have wonderful dogs in impeccable condition.  If I was ever in the need of another dog, I would love to get one of theirs.  This puppy I have is so bright and focused at 12 weeks of age.  She is nothing but a complete joy to work with.  She's self confident, and so well adjusted.  You just couldn't ask for a better temperament.  Plus, she is a complete velcro dog.  I would still reccomend their dogs to anyone.  As I said before, things happen.  I want to get into schutzund with this girl, and I went to talk to a trainer.  I knew he would want to know her pedigree, so I ran it off from this web site.  I was basically humiliated when he told me about the genetics involved.  I should have known better.  I breed horses.  I know grey is dominant.  I didn't know that sable was dominant in GSDs.   I had been looking for a dog for 2 years, and this one is the only one that I really wanted.  And she still is.  I really do recommend them. 

by crhuerta on 31 August 2009 - 02:08

Fzarkowski,
I don't think you need to appologize or feel bad about your post.......you said nothing wrong about the breeder.
I don't believe anyone else has either....?
I'm sure things will work out for the best!

darylehret

by darylehret on 31 August 2009 - 03:08

The A locus is the agouti locus or ASIP locus.  The A series is the agouti series, comprised of several possible allele types, not just in german shepherds, but in other breeds (i.e., dobermans) and species (i.e., mice, pigs).  Not all allele types (within the agouti series) are available in the genepools of each breed or species. One of which found in GSD's is a loss of function allele or null mutation known as "nonagouti black" or "recessive black"or "a", one of which isn't the ay allele which codes for a phenotype known as "fawn" or "golden sable" found in other breeds.

The aw type (as well as other types) can even be altered in phenotypical expression, due to epigenetic developments, cross affecting genes of another series and locus, or even due to affected regions within the allele itself, such as to cause dorsal or ventral loss of function.  "The ventral specific exons are located within a 3.1 kb region that is duplicated in the opposite orientation further upstream in the Aw allele [Lightner, 2009]"  For example, my rather lighter colored sable male has a black belly stripe.


darylehret

by darylehret on 01 September 2009 - 12:09

"THERE IS NO, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA, NEVER IN A MILLION TRILLION BAZILLION CHANCES IN THE DEPTHS OF HELL that this sable puppy - if it's indeed a sable - came from that sire. NO CHANCE."  ~Molly

"This means that a sable cannot be produced without a sable parent (nor from black & tans or from bicolors, as some would argue)"  ~Daryl

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, by challenging these statements made by Molly and I earlier in this thread, by saying there is a possibility, albeit a very very slim one.

Mutation is the fundamental process that gives rise to new gene variants or alleles within a series for expression at a given locus. Mutations are typically recessive in form, and often harmful when homologously paired. Alleles that code for black&tan/bicolor and solid black coloration in the German shepherd dog are such variants from the original agouti wild-type (Aw) that are however not harmful when homogenously paired.

Reverse Mutations are also known to occur, for example at the agouti locus in mice studies, in which the wild-type phenotype is restored; such organisms are called revertants. This is also known as "back mutation" or "reversion mutation." Even a more dominant variant of an allele series can revert to it's less dominant wild-type phenotype (i.e., Ay reverse mutate to Aw).
Molecular analysis of reverse mutations from nonagouti (a) to black-and-tan (a(t)) and white-bellied agouti (Aw) reveals alternative forms of agouti transcripts.
http://genesdev.cshlp.org/content/8/4/481.full.pdf
....
The agouti gene regulates the differential production of eumelanin (black or brown) and phaeomelanin (yellow) pigment granules by melanocytes in the hair follicles of mice. The original nonagouti (a) allele, which confers a predominantly black coat color, has been shown to revert to two other more dominant agouti alleles, black-and-tan (at) and white-bellied agouti (Aw), with an exceptionally high frequency. The at and Aw alleles confer phenotypes in which the pigmentation is not uniformly distributed over the dorsal and ventral surfaces of the animal; in both cases the ventral surface of the animal is markedly lighter than the dorsal surface due to an increase in phaeomelanin production. To understand the unusually high reversion rate of a to at or Aw, and to decipher the molecular events associated with the different pigmentation patterns associated with these three agouti alleles, we have characterized a, at and Aw at the molecular level.
....
Black-and-tan is dominant to a but recessive to Aw. It is dominant to A across the ventral surface of the animal, consistent with yellow being dominant to agouti, but is recessive to A across the dorsal surface of the animal, which is compatible with the observation that agouti is dominant to black. White-bellied agouti, which confers an agouti dorsal surface and a cream color over the ventral surface, is dominant to the A, at, and a alleles. The a, at, and Aw alleles are also of interest because reverse mutations from a to at or Aw are more common than any other spontaneous agouti locus mutation (Dickie 1969).
....
This implies that the original a mutation arose on a white-bellied agouti background. Furthermore, because form II transcripts are expressed in Aw but not in A, we propose that Aw is the true wild-type allele and that A actually represents a loss-of-function mutation in which form II transcripts are not expressed. This is of particular interest because both A and Aw have traditionally been referred to as wild-type agouti alleles. The proposal that Aw is the true wild-type agouti allele is not only compatible

darylehret

by darylehret on 01 September 2009 - 13:09

continued...
with the molecular data presented here but is also consistent with reports that most populations of wild mice have a whitebellied agouti phenotype (Silvers 1979).

by Samba on 02 September 2009 - 02:09

Oh, yes, a mutation could occur.  The Pandas show us color mutation.  One might have been saying you can't get a tri-color dog out of two black and tans then.  It is a very small chance though, but "anything is possible, my child". 

by eichenluft on 02 September 2009 - 04:09

would like to see the sable dogs proven (with DNA) to be produced from non-sable parents.   Anyone?  One dog?  Come on Daryl - surely if there is any chance at all, in the 100 years that the breed has existed there must be one.  One sable dog from non-sable parents - proven of course to be true and not a theory that it "could happen"?

molly

Kalibeck

by Kalibeck on 02 September 2009 - 05:09

What about rare occurences....I was reading about how rare tri-colored males cats are...something like 1 in 8 million...because the color pattern is linked to the y chromosone...so a male tortie or tri would have to have xxy, an extra chromosone....does anything like this happen, or could it happen, in the GSD? This stuff is fascinating, I'd really like to know...jackie harris





 


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