UK Hip average - Page 2

TIGERMOUSE

The BVA mean average is exactly what it is, an average of all the scores from all the plates sent in and scored. The BVA can't just set it at the level what they or anyone else want. I think that if all the plates taken were sent in, the average would be much higher than 19!!!! Until there is some way to enforce the sending in of  ALL  plates or as stated in other posts, all breeding animals MUST be at the very least hip-scored, but preferably elbow scored also before KC registration of the progeny can take place, the true average will NEVER be found!

I personally do not see what outside attraction etc has to do with wanting to score dogs and yes for some the show scene is a big thing, however there are many good breeders out there who do use other outside dogs and consistently produce healthy well bred offspring and are a bonus for our breed.  Not every one has the time, inclination or ability to travel round the country to shows.  There are also those who concentrate more on the working style of dog who do not show, surely it is for the best of the breed that scoring is done and explained to buyers of puppies (most of whom go to pet homes) the benefit of buying a dog that has all relevant screening done.

However why should the KC enforce such a system when so many UK breeders fail to support the BVA/KC system and only send plates to the SV?  I fully understand the desire to show in Germany, but seeing as the offspring is sold in the UK surely their parents - especially UK bred ones should have UK scores?

Quote Beepy

"I fully understand the "environmental impact" that can take place on dogs hips, however if multiple scores are shown then annomolies will show up and can be excluded when making assessments, but information should be given.  I also understand the impact from the bitches line, however it its their owner's who are paying for the use of the stud and their kennel name which takes the impact when progeny fail to reach expected standards".

I'm not sure I understand what point you are making.   Scores attained by the progeny of any given stud dog are only a reflection of his production with specific bitches who bring their own genetics to the table and there is no way to tell how much he has influenced them in terms of hips,.  It is an annoying fact that every problem in progeny tends to get blamed on the stud dog (particularly if he is high profile), even though the bitch and the breeder have the most influence over the pups, from their initial choice of stud (stud dog owner has very limited knowledge of the bitch, usually only what they can see at the time and what the owner chooses to tell them) to the way the pups are reared.  You cannot simply exclude occasional extreme scores from a specific dog because you cannot tell if they are from him or the bitch or how many bad hips were found on xray and never submitted for scoring.  The whole system is already flawed by the fact most really bad hips never get scored and recorded.

Margaret N-J

It is facile to argue that those GSD breeders/exhibitors who live in the UK should be made to use the BVA/KC hip scheme, and ALL dogs x-rayed for HD MUST have their plates submitted for scoring. I simply ask "what about those that DO NOT HAVE THEIR DOGS HIP SCORED AT ALL?????  Surely it is ridiculous to harp on about those that have hips graded only under the SV system, and ignore the much bigger problem.

If the KC had the balls or more importantly pedigree dogs health at heart, they would make hip scoring compulsory for ALL breeds, and compulsory that any x-rays taken for hip scoring MUST be submitted. A SIMPLE step for mankind, a HUGE, step for the KC.
I would NEVER accept any selective compulsion from the KC solely directed at those who "volunteer" to have their dogs hips scored/graded. while others can choose NOT to have their dogs hip scored.

Margaret - you were the one who raised the impact of environmental issues on hipscores.

What I meant by multiple scores being shown is that if breeders encourage purchasers of their dogs to hipscore and then the breeder provides that information to prospective users of stud dogs and or purchasers of puppies then people can remove the odd high score from the equation as they will become anomolies and not the norm when the whole information is given.  The BVA/KC provide information showing the dog scored, its scores and its parents and their scores.  When all that information is put together you can see patterns or lack of.  If for example all dogs from one bitch have a low score when compared to dogs from another bitch you can see that the scores are being influence by the bitch and maybe if you bitch is from similar lines to the bitch with high scores you might be better using different lines.  However if all progeny scored show similar scores with no influence from the mother's side then you start to see a consistency whether that be high or low.  However without information you are working in the dark and also with some people only using the BVA/KC scheme and others using the SV scheme, assessments cannot be made.

I also feel that stud owners should provide as much info as possible including  a dog's score, dna tests, genetic history as well as the known scores of existing progeny so that people who are looking to breed from these dogs are given a whole history and not just a bit.  I have to say I would like to see size and colouring marked down, without having to get survey books out, to research genetics.

After all no one buys a house without a survey or buys a car without test driving it first - why should people be expected to use a stud dog who has been around for a couple of years without being shown evidence of their ability to produce not only good looking, winning stock but those who are sound in construction as well.

I imagine it is hard for the KC to formally impose a rule on one breed when it is something that they cannot impose on all breeds.  They have tried to do it - all be it unsuccessfully - on those who sign up for the accredited breeders scheme - as they have to abide by the health screening etc or be penalised.

However if those who are quite visible in the breed promote such a scheme, do so very visibily it can only push the KC towards such a system.  I have read only very recently that they are going to do more research into DM within the GSD and the more support they can be given can only be a good thing.  The KC will only push something such as compulsory scoring before registration when the majority are doing so - therefore if every one who feels this should be implemented gets their dogs scored then they can push for such a scheme.

If you are going down that line I for one would like enforcement of dogs meeting a certain age before they are used at stud - something which isnt done now - even within the breed clubs rules in the UK and as I keep saying a transparency in progeny information.  What good is it for a dog to be promoted and promoted for years to find that actually its progeny 1st generation are good but for 2nd generation to be poor?

beepy: it should be a simple matter to read exactly what I wrote above: for example as follows:
If the KC had the balls or more importantly pedigree dogs health at heart, they would make hip scoring compulsory for ALL breeds,
You will please note the words "ALL breeds."

Beepy

Did you know that you can become an accredited breeder without ever having bred a litter,for a fee I believe of £15

No checks no balances!!.

I agree all breeding stock should be hip and elbow x-rayed and submitted.

Julie

Not all breeds have a problem with hips - often they have other issues.  Why subject a dog for screening when its inappropriate for that breed.

We do not test GSD's for PRA, but breeds such as Corgis are genetically screened.

However having just visted the VIDEX site - I see that many of your dogs do not under go BVA/KC screening but are only screened under the SV.  May be before you want the KC to do something you should make sure you can say that you have done it first.

You have stated to me on another thread that you cannot compare the two systems yet it is interesting to note that your Varus and Luigi only have SV scores.

In his interview with WUSV aktuell, Reinhardt Maeyer SV National Breed Warden, was asked the following question:
WUSV aktuell: Keyword: “Breed Assessment?”
For years, we have practiced a breed assessment in terms of the HD. However, we must sadly realise that this breed assessment, in the form that we practice it, is not successful. This finding has been classified in the meantime by top class geneticists. The breed committee in collaboration with experts form the main branch office are looking, and finding, alternative methods which will promise success.
See: http://www.videxgsd.com/interview_with_reihardt_meyer.htm
Maybe the SV will consider a new HD scheme along the following lines: http://www.videxgsd.com/early_hip_screening.htm