Temperament Testing - Page 2

Oh dear, Hodie.  :(   As I stated I am certainly no expert, but I think I will honor my own rule (which I shamefully broke twice today), of not posting again on e-lists were newbies get stomped.   I have to go train my newbie self and my newbie dog at the schutzhund club.

Best Regards to all, and most Sincerely,

Cathy M.

 Saxtonhill,

If you are participating in a good Schutzhund club with knowledgeable people, you surely will be better off to learn about and test temperament there.

Mirasmom is correct that the breed is considered in the ATT, as well as the training the dog has received.  The tester does not expect a pointer to react the same manner as a gsd,  nor do they expect an untrained Ambred gsd to react in the same manner as a schutzhund trained gsd.    The TC does not have the same criteria or consideration.

In the TC's I have participated in or observed, the testers expected gun-shy reactions at the sound of th estarter pistols--they just wanted to see that the dog (eventually) recovered.   The schutzhund dogs did not react to the gunshots the same way because (a) we try to weed out gunshyness and (b) most associtated the sound with the whip and started looking for the helper, barking and getting ready to "play."    We expect better nerves that for a dog to be "startled" by an opening umbrella--ESPECIALLY in the PNW.  Again, the testers just wanted to see recovery.   My btich never reacted, even when the idiot put the umbrella tip right on her nose, then opened the umbrella.  She lived in SEATTLE, home of the Annual Rain Festival from October to May.  Why the HELL would she ever react to an opening umbrella?  They repeated that portion of their little test THREE times, because they wanted to see "startle" and "recovery".  Exactly the type of thing the schutzhunders wouldn't want to see.  No allowance was made for the different traiing at all.    They made no allowance for the response of the German Shorthaired Pointer to the weidrd stranger either--he 'Pointed"!!   What else was he supposed to do? 

hodie:  Some of these so called temperament tests are a bunch of crap run by people who have only a novice understanding of canine behavior. 

That's for sure. This temperament test for GSD's is little Is little different that the GSDCA temperament test (where testers are somewhat familiar with the GSD breed--but rarely have any experience with dogs capable of doing schutzhund work). They would rather see a dog recover (after, inially, being shy, barking, growling, hacking, etc). Being indifferent, non-reactive does not get full points in a pass/fail test.

When the local AKC GSD specialty club hosted a GSDCA test (where the late Bob Penny evaluated) in the late 1980's, I was advised by a well-meaning person not to test my immature female (AKC--going back the the bloodlines I had started with in 1960's) because she was in heat. "Oh, BS--how ridulous", I thought!! This should not negatively impact her behavior. So what if she had no "training" to prepare for the "test"!

So, yes--she passed with no problems.

Well I think I will stick my neck out here... I think sometimes this type of test can show you more about a dogs temperment than schutzhund. I say this because most people won't go out and prepare for it, where in schutzhund things are done over and over and a dog gets conditioned so to speak. I think the traffic portion of a BH also can illustrate a dogs temperment, because it can change under different judges making it a bit hard to prepare for. I have done both and only have titled once to a SchH1 so JMO. In the TT I did on 3 of my dogs some eons ago the tester was a schutzhund judge.... I also think recovery is important in evaluating temperment. If a dog has never seen something, lets say the umbrella, and startles with an OMG, then is able to say oh big deal vs that sucker is going to eat us lets leave, I think it says alot. It is evaluating a dog in possible real life situations it is maybe not use to. Not a repitition exercise. OK let the heckling begin...

It's too bad people are preparing for a "temperament" test.  This should be, by its very name, not a product of conditioning.  I would also think that younger dogs would show their inner selves better than older dogs who are more a product of training and environment.

Perhaps I should start my own testing program for older pups!

I don't think I'd put a whole lot of stock in a temperament test that people prepare/train for. What's the point? I'd still go if there was one close by, but only for the socializing aspects. Trigger loves hanging out with other people and dogs.

that the test is based on that particular breed of dog

Sounds like breed profiling ;-)  This test, desinged in response to Breed specific legislations (BSL), also includes an "umbrella" test.  "Breed stereotyping, like racial profiling, ignores the complex environmental factors that contribute to canine temperament and behavior."

Assessment of Canine Temperament in Relation to Breed Groups

Some of these so called temperament tests are a bunch of crap run by people who have only a novice understanding of canine behavior.

I think sometimes this type of test can show you more about a dogs temperment than schutzhund.

I think there's alot of truth to both statements, as you can see in the following tests designed for government agencies (FBI, NIJ, DHS).

SWGDOG SC 3 – SELECTION OF SERVICEABLE DOGS

Appendix 3.1: Selection of Serviceable Dogs
 

I feel that the initial "sociability" exam could use a serious revamping, but overall it's pretty inclusive.  I condensed the exams to 14 pages here: http://www.ehretgsd.com/DogEval-WIP.pdf

Perhaps I should start my own testing program for older pups!

I think the one above is a pretty good start, but if you have any good ideas, I hope you share!

It's about $25.  a pop.  Nice racket, put up a flyer at the local dog parks & rake in the dough.