White Shepherd > SCAM (17 replies)
by Steven Taingard on 18 November 2011 - 15:47
My first encounter with the White Shepherd was through a friend ,he has a male he got through an animal rescue shelter.It is a wonderfull
dog and my family and I fell in love with him
Living in a city we had no place for a dog ,last year I took a job transfer and now rent a house in the country.We as a family decided the time is right
for a dog (Swiss White Shepherd)
I contacted a number of breeders ,they all have nice webpages and their dogs have FCI pedigrees In the end there were 4 that we visited and after we chose one
,based on their experiance ,the awards they had won ,availability and timeing of the puppies
The price for a dog was 1500 euros,I paid the deposit of 500 euros . When I went to pick up the puppy I was offered a choice of two a male and female ,the rest of the puppies had already left,it was a boy we wanted so the choice was eazy .I did notice a lack of coloring and was told the pigmantation would come with age
Happy with our new family member we returned home After two months still a red nose and light eyes also its feet were going east to west ,I contacted the breeder and was told to give vitamin and calcium and that I was over excercising the dog Some weeks latter I recieved the export pedigree half is missing (not verrified )
Once again I contacted the breeder I had no improvement wth the coloring ,no improvement with the feet and half a pedigree
I was told by the breeder it must be my fault ,that I had not followed the dietry instructions and had over excercised the dog and that everybody knows the white shepherd has not a full pedigree because it has just been recognised.
Next I contacted an advocate ,his thoughts were clear, a breeder advertising dogs with FCI pedigrees has an obligation to inform its buyers of missing geneology ,
by not doing so they are implying the dog is purebreed and are false advertising
A letter was sent to the breeder and ignored ,only after a court apperance was set did the breeder contact my advocate .4 days ago I recieved 2200 euros from the breeder via the advocate
Anybody else who has been taken by this scam ,remember you have rights ,if you pay 1500 euros for a half breed you are being cheated .The breeder has to inform you of missing geneology, if they dont you have a right to your money back
by Hundmutter on 25 April 2012 - 17:59
|And you are surprised ????|
by patlander on 25 April 2012 - 23:42
|i feel so bad for you my imported chipped tattoo gsd was stolen from me by a breeder she has his picture on her website and is also breeding his son she has no papers on them she called me five years after he was stolen and offered 2 thousand dollars and 1 or 2 of his sons she wants to show his daughter i begged for aldo back she said he was fixed and gave him away talk abouy scam hausdakagermanshepards if you want to see i am heartbroken love your dog|
by White Spirit of Dreams on 30 April 2012 - 06:01
|sorry steven, but the thing with the pedigree is not so easy. just saying that they are not purebred, just beacause the pedigree is not full, is just not true. these dog just have not been registered after the recognition within fci!|
some countries do not care and they fill up the pedigrees even if the dogs have not been registered at all. so this does not guarantee that you have a purebred dog! funny thing expecially when you have a full pedigree with coloured dogs in.... think about it...;-)
pigmentation is not influencing the dogs health or life at all. i´d rather choose a red nose than a bad hip...
but and this is the only thing i am with you: the breeder should have been honset with you about the pigmentation and pedigree (whih is not full but does not mean this dog is not purebred!). these two things do not affect the happiness of this dog! only the legsposition need to be looked after by a vet. have him x-rayed when he is old enough! i keep my fingers crossed that your dog is healthy even his legs are not in line...
by TREBONS on 05 May 2012 - 15:49
| I have to disagree with you on that Pedigrees are pretty simple and if you are not sure of the FCI definitionof a pure bred dog contact your Kennel club I think you will find that it is 3 verrified generations Or go to the FCi website for thier definition and I quote|
A dog is considered to be pure-bred if its pedigree includes 3 complete generations registered with
FCI recognized studbooks (registrations with the appendix to the studbooks are not accepted)
i.e. name of the dog + FCI studbook initials + registration number
Should the FCI Office find out afterwards that the pedigree of a dog registered with an FCI recognized
- includes ancestors registered with the appendix to a FCI recognized studbook or
- is incomplete or
- includes ancestors registered with non-FCI recognized studbooks,
the CACIB(s) and possibly the title(s) of International Champion (Beauty-C.I.B and Show-C.I.E)
confirmed will be cancelled.
This also includes world winner and European winner titles I hope that clarifies the matter for you and gives you a better understanding .I think if I remember rightly the Fci in 2006 or2007 sent out a circular specifically for the bbs regarding the use of gsds and imports (Uk ,Usa Australia) I cant remember the exact wording but again contact your Kennel club (you are more than welcome to pm me, if there is anything else you do not understand)
Regarding Stevens posting there are two things that bother me the first I am sure everyone would agree is that this is a rip off
2nd rate advice
2nd rate breeder
2nd rate pedigree
1ST rate price
The Berger Blanc at the momment is getting a lot of good publicity ,it is also doing very well in show not only taking group but also BIS all over Europe The breed has built up a lot of good credit ,but as of yet not proven anything ,that credit is based on potential ours as breeders and the dogs, it will soon be taken away if we dont look after our customers
The second point and a big worry,are the Charlie Chaplin feet _ ,French feet I believe is the correct term ,this is starting to become quite exagerated and common and is caused by sloppy,careless breeding
In 2003 the breed was pre recognised and in a few short years we are already changing the anatomy of the dog
by Hundmutter on 05 May 2012 - 17:17
Pardon me - but this is all still so much nonsense - whether the FCI has fallen for it or not. If I prefer, and show sucessfully, Lemon & White Beagles, and thus concentrate on breeding further Lemons over Hound Colours/Tri's so that
virtually all dogs that I produce / sell / exhibit are Lemon & White - does the dog become anything else but a Beagle ?
[It may turn out to be A Lemon.!]
Of course it would not 'do' to have Berger Blanc Suisse (whatever their Pigment on nose 'n' nails) shown to be the crappy white GSDs they still are, hence the reluctance to look back beyond three generations ago on the pedigree. So they rule that you only need 3 generations to establish a new Breed.
Where is the documented and proven difference, the input of OTHER genes, the outcross to another Breed or Breeds, that
make White Shepherds (of any Nationality) NOT German Shepherd Dogs. ???
by Sereno on 05 May 2012 - 21:41
by magdalenasins on 06 May 2012 - 05:56
|I have yet to see a white GSD that can do any work or doesn't have some allergy/illness/temperment issue...They are being bred like mad here in the UK...|
by Hundmutter on 06 May 2012 - 06:01
|Sue - you really don't get it, do you ? There is nothing "sly" about my remarks, they are just too honest for you "white shepherd" people to take. I have nothing against white dogs ... and everything against those 'humans' who for the past |
two dozen years have perpetrated this charade while lining their pockets.
Answer my questions properly and PROVE there is more to you all than a money-making con and maybe I won't like it but I'll give you collectively some lee-way.
For the time being all I can do is read posts like others on here about the epilepsy and the poor hips and poor temperaments ... and now entropian, for chrisakes - entropian ? in GSDs (or what are essentially still GSDs) !!! and despair for the breed I love.
by Sereno on 06 May 2012 - 10:02
You may or not be aware i am currently at my home in the UK with my four adult BBS and two 12 week old pups that i am running on to choose from. As you are also in the UK I offer you to come to my home here in Pembrokeshire before i return to Spain to see my dogs and pups just like some others have already done to book a possible future pup to join their family - to see their temperaments, look for entropian or other ailments, check their documents, health screening results, copies of which i give to anyone who buys a puppy from me (along with a money returned contract). I also go through the pedigree with people so they are aware of any missing WSS geneology as some dogs within the lines may have still been registered as White Shepherds/WGSD due to recognition only been since 2003.
I cannot speak for all breeders as there are good & bad in ALL breeds and as in all breeds, puppies need to be reared correctly to ensure their temperaments and health is good for prospective purchasers. But.. i can assure you i have been fortunate to have met some good breeders in Europe and had calls from people in the UK who have longstanding knowledge of white lines and who certainly have helped and supported me as i also am constantly learning myself.
As to lining pockets... it will be a cold day in hell before anyone could tell me i have made any money from my dogs now or in the past. By the time i (and i know other breeders) have paid family or friends to dog sit for me then to travel to a show (sometimes paying for a flight to come over to Spain) with entries of maybe two or three dogs, travelling and tolls, accomodation fees, good quality premium dog food, vet fees, BVA hips/elbows/labokin fees etc etc. For me personally it is a HOBBY enabling me to go to shows which i enjoy doing with my dogs.
In the UK before my white's i owned and showed Great Danes (still have one remaining). If you want to see entropian problems try breeding Harlequins! In ten years i had three litters of pups - only one harlequin litter - and you know why? because half of the pups needed to have their eyelids pinned back until their eyelashes stopped rubbing their eyes. (all pups sold were endorsed not for breeding) I never had another litter from my Xena after that experience although this is a common practice (apparently). Xena was my longest living dane at 8 years! as i only lost her recently. My others only had fiive years of life. My fawns who i showed regularly i found out i had DCM in the line. Having lost my beloved Monty to it. I sent DNA samples back to the UK to help with their research into this devastating illness. To give up owning, showing and breeding danes was a big decision for me but i could not take the heartbreak and i certainly did not want to pass on that heartache to other people.
The only reason i returned to shepherds is that i had noticed these beautiful whites being shown in Spain and started to research the lines. Wanting a longer living healthier breed for myself this is why i have chosen them from reputable breeders. I have been fortunate to be living abroad to be able to do this.
I suppose what i want to say to you is PLEASE DO NOT TARNISH EVERYONE WITH THE SAME BRUSH there is good and bad in all HUMANS! and I personally find some of your words offensive. We need to just agree to disagree on the subject of our Shepherds
by magdalenasins on 06 May 2012 - 10:23
|Do you xray and do other genetic testing?|
by Hundmutter on 06 May 2012 - 10:57
Thank you very much for the invite, but it would be hard for me to travel to Wales at present. I quite believe you are a responsible breeder, that your dogs are lovely, that you enjoy your hobby. Like I say, I have no problem with any individual white dog, as a dog. The point you seem to be missing (and I am not trying to be hurtful here, just factual) is that someone like you (provided that you are what you claim to be, and this IS the Internet !) is a "drop in the ocean" as far as the history of any 'variety' of White Shepherd is concerned. Caring breeders may be on the increase now, but they
cannot deny the past.
We are just at that point where, before very long, the truth will be obscured by the passage of time; the pedigrees will be too long for the majority of punters to wade back through. Its only nit-pickers like me, more interested in bloodlines than in buying puppies, who will want to bother.
This does not make a jot of difference to the fact that "you" (i.e. collectively) are building towers based on sand rather than firm foundations. You will all continue to get problems, from pink noses through to epilepsy, because the foundation is corrupted. People deliberately produced whites because they could make money out of them, they usually didn't stop to worry about "health testing" in any shape or form; or about retaining working ability; or about being "ecumunical with the actualite". Probably many of the people advising you from the UK who have been so helpful and supportive will have been
guilty of the above. There are certainly enough people still breeding white GSDs for profit in the UK, you only have to look up the KC Breed Records Supplements to prove that - and that's only the REGISTERED ones.
All that stuff about wanting to save the poor doggies 'cos they were so pretty and nasty GSD breeders were culling them out just because they couldn't Show them - well, I ask you: who the hell 'throws away' the price of a couple of 'pet' puppies, especially when there is huge demand for them among pet-lovers, and when they can be flogged as "rare" whites ? If it happened at all, it happened rarely, and almost certainly for more complicated reasons.
(BTW, what do your lot do in this day & age with the odd 'coloured' pup thrown up in white litters ?)
Yes I'd heard there is entropian in Danes. No I don't want to see it. We didn't have a problem with it in GSDs; now people are on PDB crying they have White Shepherds with it, where's that got in and why ?
by Sereno on 06 May 2012 - 11:00
I chose to use the BVA system for scoring my dogs hips/elbows even though they were x-rayed by a vet in Spain. If not MDR1 +/+ proven by parentage I have them tested for MDR1 - more recently i am looking into testing for DM. As i stated previously I use Laboklin svcs.
by Hundmutter on 06 May 2012 - 11:11
|Magdelanasins - Sue said she shells out for BVA scoring; I believe her, though I cannot check because I do not know her kennel name. And of course I don't know, therefore, what results she's getting. Occasionally breeders of whites - whether registered as GSDs or not - do; but its pissing in the wind when we are talking about breeding dogs with multiple lines to known epileptics, for just one example. And none of them seem prepared to discuss just where the (mainly UK) "registered|
white GSDs" turned into FCI-accepted, true-breeding Swiss (or other) White Shepherds.
Are you following me around ? L xx
by Sereno on 06 May 2012 - 11:36
try 'Sereno Spirit'
by Hundmutter on 06 May 2012 - 13:06
|Thank you for the Website link, Sue. Funny but I can only see FCI hip grades on your breeding stock. Not that thats bad in itself - but you've said you have "chosen to use the BVA system", so it would be nice to be able to find some actual KC/BVA scores attached to any of your dogs on there ? As your 'A' litter have passed their 1st birthday, might I enquire as to whether any of their radiographs have been submitted yet ? |
I note the nice explanation of the HD/E scheme on your site; pity the WSS 'mean' is still 19; it is down to 15.7 for 2011 in
German Shepherd Dogs.
Tell me, you say that "No one has ever hidden the fact that WSS/BBS originate from WGSD lines" - but you aren't actually shouting about it either, are you ? I do wish I could be sure that no breeder conceals this from members of the public looking for puppies ...
What does the 'W' GSD stand for, would that be Working ? West German ? or "White" ? No such thing as a 'White German Shepherd Dog Breed' in the UK, remember.
Cova has 'Blinkbonny', 'Amiscus' and 'Vondaun' ancestors, yes ?
No I don't want to indulge in a 'slanging match' either - but I don't actually think I need to.
by Sereno on 06 May 2012 - 15:24
You know the BBS is currently not recognised by the British Kennel Club as well as I so where would you find my dogs BVA scores listed and so why would they have a mean score for the BBS (the 19 was obviously an old mean score for the GSD - so i made a mistake by not updating my website).
by Hundmutter on 06 May 2012 - 16:44
|Strange how people leave the playing field in high dudgeon when it gets a little hot.|
Interesting that there have been questions on this board (asked by other people, not me) about the origins of the WSS/BBS, and about whether any of them are titled anywhere, which have been up for weeks without ONE reply.
I am not and never have been a breeder myself, which gives me ample room just as an interested observer and 'Shepherdite' to comment on all kinds of breed-related matters, [safe in the knowledge that no-one can then get back at me by discouraging people from buying from me, or not place me in the showring, or any of the other tricks that go on.] At least I am not making money out of my chosen breed. Do you want me to put up some of the recorded white GSD litters I am referring to, on here ?
Oh, to answer YOUR question : where would one expect to find the BVA score results on your stock ? Well clearly not the KC's website; but on yours, when you are advertising a litter, yes. Its fairly standard practice across the board with conscientious breeders to list such things (at least where they are proud of them ) and
I would have hoped to find such information in the case of a new 'breed' trying to gain credibility. Particularly if I actually wanted to buy a white pup. We frequently critiscise GSD breeders who do not do this, why should we make an exception for WSS ? Especially in the UK in the current, post PDE, climate.