White Shepherd > Question (66 replies)
by Nicole H on 06 September 2009 - 15:19
the Problem is...Obi...his parents are not white.
by Alpinarc on 07 September 2009 - 21:14
|This is what I do not understand, plenty have used Obi, even former president of BBI.|
by Nicole H on 08 September 2009 - 06:29
|Yes, which is correct. But some countries make which it want whether it are permitted or not!|
The FCI says absolutely no. So OBI may actually in no FCI country into the breed.
In netherland Obi is father too, that was also forbidden (of the FCI)
I do not find some rules good, but it may not be, which makes which each country it wants.
That is valid also for the papers. Some countries write dogs into the papers, which may not stand there.
Obi could have been determined phenotype. Then it would be in the breed, but without ancestor.
In Germany we have many dogs in the breed, where the Pedigree is empty. Because of the acknowledgment of the race, the ancestors were taken over not of the FCI.
There stands, not after VDH/FCI guidelines bred.
I find that naturally very unfortunate.
It takes now a great many years, to we with these dogs and its children, a full Pedigree gotten. We receive puppies for its only certificates of register not a Pedigree.
by Tina13 on 08 September 2009 - 16:00
What stop you from using that male? Yes I know Obi's parents are coloured.
But since other breeders can using dogs with no 3 generation white. Is it your wss club that says no or is it the kennel club?
And if the dog has an empty pedigree, can you use the dog then? even if the dog has coloured ancestor?
by Ironbabe on 08 September 2009 - 16:07
|you do not get the confirmation from the wss club for the mating.... and if you use the dog without permission, the puppies will receive either no pedigree or the pedigree will be restricted for not breeding with the puppies...|
by Tina13 on 08 September 2009 - 16:32
Another one then...let's say I have a female after coloured parents or there are coloured parents in the pedigree and here you can use this female and still register the puppies.
I want to use a german male..Is that ok for you or will your kennel club say no?
by Nicole H on 08 September 2009 - 18:30
the kennel Club say no..and the FCI say no too.
by Sicro on 12 September 2009 - 23:38
|Unfortunately these rules came up from the Swiss club!!!|
To me they make no sense at all, nevertheless the White Swiss Shepherd is genetically nothing else than a German Shepherd and breeding rules should be there to improve - not to restrict the breed!
I can not understand why other countries simply compass these rules and countries like Germany just undergo them, even if they don`t like them!
It is up to the breeding clubs or to the international governing bodies, like the BBI or FBBSI in Europe for example, to do something against it, like:
And - that doesn`t mean that we would be allowed to mate White and Coloured, but just accept some Coloureds in the backend of the pedigree...
But - as long as we just accept it ( and just moaning doesn`t help!) obviously nothing will change...
by Nicole H on 14 September 2009 - 14:49
by Ceph on 21 September 2009 - 14:19
I generally feel that alot of the restrictions faced in Germany and Switzerland are a little tight, especially with a developing breed. It's causing (at least in my opinion) a movement away from the working oriented breed to a more pet oriented breed (certainly not the case all the time, but it seems to be a more frequent trend).
by Ironbabe on 22 September 2009 - 18:56
|nice thoughts, but for this the fci circular needs to be adapted...|
by Ceph on 22 September 2009 - 20:13
|Yes -- I suppose so -- but I think it is a breeding method that would make alot of sense.|
It would require the setting up of an internationally recognized stock registry for the BBS -- which could be difficult -- but under this theory you are able to track the pedigree of dogs who perhaps are not able to be recognized by the FCI but whose progeny might be eligible down the road.
My background is actually in breeding of horses -- and my program studied German warmbloods -- mainly integrating Oldenburgs, Hanovarians, and Trakheners -- our Herd Stallion was a Selle Francais approved to multiple German Registries though for his accomplishments. There was a decided loss of identity between the different breeds, because the major stallions were being used accross the lines -- but what was a detriment in the equine world would be a benefit for us.
Additionally -- I think folks in the horse world tend to be alot more careful with their breedings if for nothing else then it takes so much longer for a foal to mature and because they only produce one offspring at a time...and the cost of housing and feeding a horse is astronomical compared to dogs. It means that in general they HAVE to work harder at it.
If folks in the dog world, and more specifically the BBS world were to incorporate that system not only would it improve genetics but it would also help to control the quality of dogs that were to be produced. Additionally -- if you hold Keurings throughout the world in several locations you are able to bring together the different lines for those that want to participate. It would allow for non-member countries to perhaps involve their dogs in the growth of the BBS.
The problem I see with it is that I'm not sure that the culture of Dog-Breeding would be amendable to this -- history generally shows that rather then open up to other breeds and looking at them *seriously* to ensure that they structurly, tempermentally and genetically fit the breed standard folks would rather just sneak lines in unknown or close down the breed entirely. I think the dog world could use a little more horse-sense and break from tradition a mite.
Afterthought : theoretically the Circulaire allows for dogs of three generations of white and three generations without registered German Shepherds to be registered as the BBS correct? If this is the case it should be possible for a group of people to get together and form a registry on their own -- the difficulty would be working together and coming to an agreement on what requirements would be specified for a dog to be approved to the registry and for breeding -- and then orchestrating the Keurings throughout the world so that there is a set standard of judgement in each location a Kuering is held.
by Fridrich on 24 October 2009 - 04:07
Just a simple answer to the question why the WSS Swiss club and FCI does not want to allow breeding mongrels: well because German Shepherds and White Swiss Shepherds are two different breeds, under two different FCI breed standards, exteriors and character. E.g. the backs of WSS are supposed to be straight line, not like GS, where they are almost at the ground, etc. When WSS breed started many years ago there were not enough WSS males to reproduce, I quite understand the imports, let´s say. But nowaday, it is not necessary to return to 1980s and start all over again with removing the coloured ones from the bloodlines.
What these two institutions are protecting is the breed of WSS that after many years and hard work of dedicated breeders has now developed into (which sadly cannot be said about some recent breeders at all who want to back to the year 0). The USA are not the FCI members and can breed freely what they want. Some European breeders do not get it at all.
It is very unfortunate that some people who have WSS in Europe allow to cross breed against the FCI rules, although as FCI kennels they are absolutely obliged to follow FCI. And Germany is not anymore an exemption, just have a look at some breeders sites and you will see there was a breaking of FCi Circulair 77/2007 rules very recently.
I am surprised why some people insist on mongrels and cross breeds of WSS and GS. If they like the GS so much why do they breed White Swiss Shepherds???
WSS breeders - why dont you think what you want to breed and breed the pure breed not mongrels!!!
Cannot help myself from this ironic comment: How about using Samoyed for improving the White Swiss Shepherds? It is white, it has a nice thick and long coat, great ears and it can improve the overgrown WSS..... how about that cross breeders???
Quo Vadis White Swiss Shepherds - if the breeders keep cross breeding you with German Shepherd all over again???
by white Energy on 24 October 2009 - 11:28
why did you buy a white female with a coloured dog in the fourth generation?
by Fridrich on 25 October 2009 - 16:11
to be honest, I do not quite understand what that particular female has to do with the content of my previous comment, with the FCI Circulaire 77/2007 and in what way her pedigree would break any FCI rules (unless you know of some rules that I do not know about), but whatever your intention with that question was, I will try to answer you as well as I can:
First of all: I am talking about the FCI rules and the specific FCI Circulaire no. 77/2007. Anybody who reads it properly would understand under what condition it is obeyed and under what conditions one breaks it. I.e. the 2nd and 3rd generations must be without coloured ancestors and concerning the dogs born after 2003. You should maybe want to read the Circulaire properly perhaps if you want to question that female any further.
Secondly: You bet I check the pedigrees of dogs I consider for mating or for buying much more carefully nowadays. Almost 5 years ago, there was much less and limited information available and much worse access to information. That is why I consider the involvement of the breeders (specially with new, unaware future owners) as crucial and their ethical behaviour as the key, i.e. informing the future owners of what they actually purchase.
Thirdly and most importantly: I would not EVER consciously and purpously mate or import a dog against the Circulaire NOW!!! Why would I want to do that? Besides the fact that I am an FCI breeder (whether one likes it or not, if the kennel is FCI and that institution has some rules, then you are obliged to follow them) - besides that there are so many beautiful WSS who already have white ancestors min. up to their 4 or 5th generation, and who did not just automatically become WSS just because they are white, although born to German Shepherds, because that is the main problem. I think that many WSS owners do not realise and appreciate what they have at home and devalue their own and very good WSS by mating them with mongrels.
Regarding Obi: Obi was a mistake and the whole WSS society could have put that behind, by not allowing him and his offsprings breed and the whole issue could have been over. But what is happening now: there are new, recent and even conscious imports of mongrels from the States (non FCI country) and elsewhere, whose parents or grandparents, ie. the 2. or 3. generations, are coloured. Why? To me and many other WSS breeders I know, this is not undrestandable and clear at all. It has nothing to do with Obi anymore.
If someone likes the mix with the GS, that is fine, but then go ahead and set up a new breed. Ask and request with FCI and establish a new breed, why not - it could be called a White German Shepherd, register it in, let´s say Germany and become a country of origin, set up a new breed standard, for what one cares? Believe me - many, many WSS breeders would be more than happy and thankful for that. If that would help stop dragging the GS into WSS´s bloodlines all over again.
What many breeders do not understand and refuse is: why still keep cross breeding WSS and GS now, when it has a well done and well written standard, great representatives and examples of this breed who are so close to this standard, it is finally going its own way with whites in the farther than 4th and 5th generation, it finally got rid off GS in its bloodlines and most of all - it has proved it is a legitimate breed without a need of any more cross breeding????
That, I do not get and no matter what I read it these kinds of forums, I will not fully understand. I do not know of any other dog breeds whose breeders would do this to.
by Ceph on 26 October 2009 - 13:25
First of all I'd like to remind you of the history of your breed since you seem to have forgotten. In calling the dogs imported from the US 'mongrels' you call your own dogs mongrels and thus debase the WSS. Remember that without our (US wGSD and WSD) lines that the WSS would never have existed. My fully pedigreed FCI female (Vivid Daydream Dionna) who was imported from Holland shares her fifth generation with my bred-in-the-United States male dog's (Paws Inn's DaVinci di Falconara) fourth generation. I imagine both share relatives with your own dogs. And in retrospect...I started researching her 3 years ago and had no trouble researching her lines from the US.
And when you refer to butt draging GSDs I assume you are refering to the show dogs. What about the working lines who do follow a more functional structure? I think that there are several beautiful members of the WSS breed, don't get me wrong...but I am intensely worried about the temperment and functionality of the breed. For me having a breed that is functional is the most important because what is the point of having a pretty breed that is in essence useless.
by Fridrich on 27 October 2009 - 06:36
|The bottom line in this whole case is that if you are an FCI breeder, you must follow and respect the FCI rules. Switzerland as the country of origin of the White SWISS Shepherd has a full right to dictate the rules and standards for its own breed.|
You may disagree with it, you may dislike it, you can use all your funcionality and genetics justifications, you may moan about it - but at the end of the day, if you breed White SWISS shepherd and your dogs have coloured or White German Shepherd in their 2nd or 3rd (not the4th and more) generations - it is breaking the specific rules and that is the end of story. That is reality.
There is nothing professional, nothing ethical, nothing heroic nor admirable if an FCI breeder breaks the FCI rules.
I happen to agree with the Circulaire, but even if I did not, I breed a Swiss breed and I am an FCI breeder so that is my obligation. Go figure.
I have said all of this in my 2 previous comments, that is enough.
P.S. Unlike you, I am not worried about the functionality and temperament of this breed. It is a broad topic I agree. I do work with my dogs with no problem and I know many BBS who have very high obedience tests not only in CR but in surrounding countries. Yes, there is a lot to improve, but cross breeding is not the answer and the way to do it.
by white Energy on 27 October 2009 - 09:48
oh, that´s easy. A dark shepherd in the third generation is bad but a dark shepherd in the fourth generation is great and OK.
Obi was registered before this FCI circular came out, so where is the problem? Because of the register why can´t we use dogs with coloured background? And even after recognition we had litters with coloured background in Germany and it was OK for the VDH and Switzerland. Even in Swizerland there was such a litter some years ago. All started with Obi and when he came to Germany. As long Obi was in Finland nobody cared about it.
So if you don´t want to breed with this dogs, don´t do it. And I think there is no problem with the dogs which were registered before the circular. And when some FCI club think it is OK to do this now, I think you have to accept this.
by Fridrich on 27 October 2009 - 17:22
I believe this will answer all your questions above. I am sorry, but I do not want to add more to this subject. My opinion is listed in my 3 comments above. Just one more clarification: I never said that any black ancestors in a close generation (even 4th and 5th) is ok. But that is the way the breed developed in history. What I am discussing is the years from 2003 onwards.
FEDERATION CYNOLOGIQUE INTERNATIONALE (AISBL)
Place Albert 1er, 13, B – 6530 Thuin (Belgique), tel :+184.108.40.206.38, fax : +220.127.116.11.29, email : http://www.fci.be
Circulaire 77/2007 21.06.2007
White Swiss Shepherd Dog (WSSD, 347)
As the responsible country for the breed standard White Swiss Shepherd Dog (WSSD, standard 347), the SKG informs us of their concern regarding the current situation as far as the breeding of this breed and the issuing of pedigrees by some FCI member countries are concerned. We share their concern and observe that even after the recognition of the White Swiss Shepherd Dog (WSSD, standard 347) on 01.01.2003 (date of the official recognition), matings with non-purebred subjects (3 generations) from this breed continue to take place or that white German Shepherd Dogs with one or more coloured ancestor(s) are re-registered as WSSD.
We remind all FCI member organisations and contract partners that they have to comply with the following :
1. White Swiss Shepherd Dogs (347) CANNOT be mated with white German Shepherd Dogs (GSD, standard 166) since they are two distinct breeds with different breed standards. In order to guarantee that both breeds are correctly separated, it is also important to respect what follows :
2. WSSD cannot be entered in the studbooks of this very breed if a part or all their ancestors (3 generations) were still registered, after 01.01.2003, as white German Shepherd Dogs.
3. It is not allowed to re-register as a WSSD (347) a dog which was registered as a white German Shepherd Dog (166) after 01.01.2003.
4. An accidental white German Shepherd Dogs (white puppy in a litter of German Shepherd Dogs) with one or more coloured ancestor(s) cannot be used for breeding as a WSSD nor can it be re-registered as a WSSD.
by Ceph on 27 October 2009 - 17:37
I do want to get this straight. I love this Swiss. I think they're the most organized people on the planet...I love going to the Valais and drinking wine and eating cheese and skiing. But let's get this straight. The SWISS didnt create the WSSD. They are merely the people who were able to get them recognized by the FCI. If it werent for the gumption and determination of breeders in the US, Australia, England (and a very few in Europe) the WSSD would never have come about.
If it werent for those breeders who have been breeding those 'mongrels' for the last 50 years, for those breeders who spat in the face of your precious standards, the White Shepherd Dog both here and overseas would have been a dream never realized. Because it was those folks who looked at people like yourself, people who hold onto standards like precious gold not to be trifled with, and said no. The breed was different, the standard was different, because back then it was the GSD people saying what you're saying...but the words havent changed.
You say ; "There is nothing professional, nothing ethical, nothing heroic nor admirable if an FCI breeder breaks the FCI rules." If you feel that way then you should never have become involved in the WSSD, because at one point all the WSSD was was one big breaking of an FCI rule. The white German Shepherd is outside the standard of the German Shepherd Dog if you recall...and the WSSD is wholly a descendant of the wGSD.
You say : "Unlike you, I am not worried about the functionality and temperament of this breed. It is a broad topic I agree. I do work with my dogs with no problem and I know many BBS who have very high obedience tests not only in CR but in surrounding countries." You clearly are blind to the faults of the breed if your are not worried about functionality and temperment. The WSSD is a Shepherd Dog. That means it is a working dog. As a working dog it should be functional. Obedience tests are fine and dandy -- but that's not really working. All dogs should be able to pass Obedience Tests. Not all dogs are capable of being a family pet AND a protector AND a herder AND a detection dog AND a tracker. Obedience Tests dont even really test temperment...they do a little bit...but not too much. There are some phenomonal WSSDs...but the number of them compared to the number of good GSDs is miniscule...and not only is it miniscule...but by focusing on breeding those dogs to improve the breed you will also bring out the faults of those dogs -- whether they be structural or tempermental or genetic....and not only that you increase the risk of disease.
A history lesson perhaps? Are you at all familiar with the Quarter Horse breed? It's had it's ups and downs over the last several years. There was a Stud known as Impressive several years ago. He was so beautiful, so well muscled, that he was bred and bred and bred....his lines exist in well over 50% of the QH population. Unfortunatley so does HYPP -- a genetic disease that kills horses....and is linked back to breeding to that one stud. That's the kind of issue that comes up when breeding to only a few studs -- no matter how good they are.
Much better to have some warmblood sense and instead of pulling in other breeds willy nilly -- holding tests, Keurings, and ensuring that only the best genetics, temperments, drives, nerves and structure are brought in...only