by Centurian on 04 April 2020 - 09:04
Valk .... I am on the same line of thinking as you are on :
First thought . Whenever I test a dog , I ALWAYS** seperate the learned / environmental factors /traits from the Genetics / Innate Predispostioned Traits . That is applicable to adults as well as young dogs.
Second thought . Yes we can test for the genetic bent of ' Hardness ' in puppies , and yes, we do have to beat the puppy to death. Hardness , as I speak about it, is the dog's ability to deal with and the willingness to endure , the stress inflicted by pain [ or in a puppy let's say / substitute this to mean physical discomfort ].
Third thought . Yes ... one can take a great pup and turn it into a basket case or take a great dog to be able to do great things.
Fourth thought . We cannot make a dog or a person what it is not. Either the gentics are inherited and withinn the pup or they are not . Genetic Traits you cannot put into the dog by any envirnmental /learned interaction . That is why they are called " genetic traits" as opposed to " character traits ", which are different. So I second the first Post ' these hace to be present and I will add 'recognized' [ whether absent or present ] before the training starts.
Fifth thought . YES !! There is more to consider than the , as people like to term and I detest using that terminology " Drives" .
Sixth thought . The video is what it is ... IMOp ,there is not enough information for me in the video about the puppy . Considereing what I wish to see about the dog, there is not enough info to fully evaluate the dog. . I cannot make a full assessment or evalutaion of this puppy - there may be some other nice things about this puppy [ or in general , not so nice things about certain pups at times ] . With this video I am only able to see a portion of all that I prefer to see when evaluating a puppy /dog. My evaluations consider many aspects about a dog . And .. I leave it at that . But I simply say , that I agree with Valk in his repsponse to Koots.
Seveth thought - GK .... there are some people with the mindset : Yes they do want to see the pup bites down through the clothing worn by a person because in in their philosophy they want to see at an early age ' For Real ' if that dog is will not only ' be willing to bite a person ' but is totally , ' 100% , uninhibited about biting a person '.
Last comment .... I would never ever ever , in my life [ considering what I saw in the video in totality ] do with any puppy at any time . That is an expressed personal opinion and I leave it at that ... Anyone can PM me for further elaboration . I leave this thought at that and I let the experts take the comment further to discuss , if they choose to .
by GK1 on 04 April 2020 - 09:04
if you wanna see a truly innate traits, you should start to test your pups when they have minimum of real life experience/knowledge and responds in the way not like they learned to but how their nature forces them to do this.
So what age range are you referring to? Examples of such tests would be helpful to this discussion.
by duke1965 on 04 April 2020 - 10:04
so, let me explain, the topic is called NATURAL DRIVES, and my post is about natural drives, nothing else
we can find videos on the net where pups with NO natural prey/posession are trained to hold an object trough either shaping/clicker, or compulsion/ecollar, and people love it
we can find videos on the net where pups/dogs are on a tieback and are agitated and/or frustrated before given a bite, and people love it
dogs are kept without food, or given all kind of fancy treats to get them motivated for obedience on fooddrive, people love it
we are in a situation where people wonder why there are not so many good dogs anymore, its all about the training tricks and gimmicks and we forgot that well balanced dogs with natural drives, dont need all that, they just need to be trained to use their genetic capabilities in the way we want
dont want to teach a dog to retrieve, I dont want to teach a dog to bite, it should be natural
by ValK on 04 April 2020 - 13:04
back then in 70-80s the early testing of pups been perceived as self-evident need.
no one looked at it like something special. pups from border were delivered at age 5-6 weeks old and first thing was to distinguish potential of each pup, so an assigned handler can develop personal plan to rise and prep that pup for selection test.
unfortunately what i can see today from available on internet sources, the pups of that age the people shows only sort of "look how cute my puppy are", "see how excited my puppy about of chase of thingy" and such. thus i can't provide you video of intentional test. only video i have and i have posted it way back on this forum, is a video in which two ladies (unknowingly/incidentally) did with 5 weeks old pup something which in fact turned out to be a pretty good test. at least this video gave me way more information about pup than any other video of pups, i have seen.
by Centurian on 04 April 2020 - 13:04
,, I underatnding the point that you want to make.. and for the general point that you are trying to establish .. I agree with what you are saying . But IMOp I think that what we want to see are not the drives as you term them . I want to see the The espressioin of wehat the dog is through how it behaves naturally . For examole , If I decided to do Schutzhund and I am looking at a few candidates of puppies . and some of these uppies I have had. At 8 weeks old I woild throw a tennis ball 15 feet or 20 feet out from me when the pup is obviously loking at the ball . I do not entice the dog as you mentioned to fire the dog's ingerest up . I simpy place the ball in the dog's sight and flop the ball out. Now I want to see : does the dog go for the ball , how [ in a straight line or not] how fast . Then I look at : what does the pup do when it gets the ball and to what degree . One pup I gad to contimue the examoe is that it 1. immediately ran to the ball 2 . immediately picked the ball up and 3. immediately it ran , not came , it ran directly in front and back to me in order to place the ball as I stooped down right into my hand . My assessment : this dog has a phenomenal 'Retrieve instinct /trait . I do not think of this as a 'drive'. This was an innate genetic trait that was expressed in fullness . So what , I ha e had dogs that would run to the ball , dicker around for a moment and bring it bak and drop it. I have had dogs that would run after that ball , stand over it and look at me saying 'come and get it make my day '. A Point to consider , they all had innate behaviors. The first dog that brought that ball for me would excel compared to any other dog to retrieve something- this could be a dog in warfare that we qualify to send to find a down soldier carrying a flag as a signal of being down, back to a handler by the dog . The last dog had natural retireive trait but this dog at 1 years old did a police demo off collar - he had a great ability to work afar from and without handler nearby and also had a great propensity to want to posses. Philosophically - is the dog with great natural retireve instinct more or less than the dog that has natural possesion instincts ? I have my answer and I believe that is part of the problem in the present day dog world ... and the answer that many may have to that question...
So I agree with your last scentence in repsects. But what is not accounted for is not just the kind of trait but what is equally important is the quality of the trait. You gave an example of dogs needing to be agitated. I agree with what you are trying to make as a point - for conversations , I truly do . But it is not the end all and that is where I think the thread falls short/is lacking. Why .. Because there are some tasks that you do not want the dog to need stimulation as a promt to work - I get that . But then on the other hand ..... I do not want a dog at times, that at the slightest , littlest amount ever possible , as thin as a hair is , be provoked to bite . At times I need to have a dog that didn't respond or react without [ at least a microsecond ] thinking , not knowing what the hell it was doing ! So to me if someone says that dog has natural bite drive that means nothing to me.
' Drive[s] ' alone does not tell me what I need to know about the dog ! Every dog eats , every dog bites , every dog responds to motion , every dog uses it's nose. I personally look for the 'Kinds' and the ' Amounts'/Intensity of Innate Instincts , the dog on it's own*** accord***, has expressed. A dog chasing is not simplistically just chasing. A dog biting is not in simpicity just biting.
by Koots on 04 April 2020 - 13:04
That pup might make me get back into dogs.
This, in one sentence, is the best endorsement of the pup you could get, from a person whom I respect and consider an authority on working dogs.
by duke1965 on 04 April 2020 - 13:04
centurian, respectfully disagree with about 90 % of you last post
all dogs bite,definately not
all dogs eat, yes, but thats way different than what im talking about
preydrive and posession comes in many shapes and formes, most will not function on the street
and yes, I want a dog easy to bite, but under control, not a dog that will only bite, when told to bite,
im selecting dogs for my liking, and my clients liking, and if there are people that dont agree with that, im fine with that
by ValK on 04 April 2020 - 14:04
dog can perfectly do retrieve anything, including metal thingy, be highly reactive to threatening posture and be good biter but as long... as yet to face overwhelming response and threat to own wellbeing.
by duke1965 on 04 April 2020 - 14:04
valk, still you and cent are missing the point of this post, its genetics versus trained behaviour, most drives can be and are replaced by trained behaviour
both parents have good civil drives, maybe even to much for some,so I dont worry about that
I have 4 males and 1 female we are running on from this combination, if I tought they were no good, maybe wouldnot run them on
but again, this is not what the topic and video are about
by ValK on 04 April 2020 - 15:04
duke, i'm totally understood point of posted video and said in first response i'm absolutely with you in the belief of predominance of innate qualities over obtained through learning.
the only difference between us is that you accentuating traits, which can be taught and thus considered by me as secondary ones and, albeit good to have, still not extremely important in development of pup into mature dog.
it's not hard to teach dog to retrieve, to attack, to bite but impossible to teach a dog to be recklessly brave, absolutely selfconfident and proud, stubborn in task execution and to be smart.
i'm not criticizing you or your pup. just expressed my impression about video.