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by apple on 14 August 2019 - 16:08

Not biting a sleeve or suit that is slipped instills in the dog that he is biting the man and not equipment. That does not mean the dog doesn't know there is equipment there. They always know, even with a hidden sleeve. I just think it instills a different mindset in the dog and keeps the focus on the man. The reward is the bite and the fight, not the equipment. When using a bite pillow, the dog does get to win that, but it is more for reinforcing correct technique, such as full mouth, not letting the pillow to be pulled out of his mouth, and pushing rather than pulling. It has nothing to do with outing.

by emoryg on 14 August 2019 - 17:08

I should be more careful with the term jute junkie. Yes, if there is any doubt about your dog’s commitment, then by all means do not slip the equipment.

by duke1965 on 14 August 2019 - 18:08

valk, I dont think its related jumping in blind has different origin I think and could be terminated very easily IMO,

by apple on 14 August 2019 - 18:08

I think sleeves have a limited role in training green dogs for police work, such as a short period of grip development and rewards for building searches in the early phases. Otherwise, I think they should be put on a suit as much as possible and not slipping the suit.

by emoryg on 15 August 2019 - 11:08

There's an old saying, 'start making excuses for your dog, and you end up with an excuse for a dog'. Having to worry about a police dog biting a sleeve (at any level of training) and it having an impact on his street performance speaks volumes of the person who tested and/or trained the dog and their lack of understanding the basic fundamentals of dog vs human bite dynamics and the desirable traits needed for the K-9 to thrive in those encounters.

I have no idea who the hacks are that feed vulnerable people this BS, but it translates into them being clueless about selecting and training police dogs. Might as well be saying, oh, by the way, here’s a crap dog that you or your fellow officers to one day depend on. Just teach him to push, say a little prayer, learn how to do the Heimlich maneuver so when he chokes on the real bite you can save him, and don’t let him bite a sleeve. He’ll do just fine.

Until the basic concepts are understood, equipment will never be just an adjunct for bitework as intended, but will remain a wing and a prayer for the dog. Then again, as long as the criminal isn’t wearing a sleeve….He’ll do just fine.

by apple on 15 August 2019 - 12:08

It is not about worrying that a sleeve will create problems, but that a suite, properly used, better facilitates a dog learning to fight a person for various reasons. They can feel the person through the suit if the correct suite is used, resulting in the dog perceiving the suit as an extension of the person as opposed to a sleeve that is a prey object. They can learn to target many different areas and I believe teaching targeting takes the guesswork out of the equation and reduces hesitation and increases commitment. Suite work requires a more skilled decoy in order to take advantage of it. Of course a dog that is going to make it as a police dog has to have the desirable traits needed.

by duke1965 on 15 August 2019 - 14:08

agree with Emoryg, I test and work all green dogs on a sleeve, why not, if they will bite prey/reward only it is same on a suit, saw multiple KNPV titled dogs that wouldnot bite anything else than a suit.

like your old saying Emoryg LOL

by apple on 15 August 2019 - 14:08

The dogs you saw that would not bite anything but a suit was not the result of being trained on a suite. They were lacking certain traits. All I am saying is that with a good dog, sleeves have a role in grip development and dogs worked on the proper suite with a skilled decoy can result in a better outcome for the reasons I have already stated. Suite work is physically more demanding and requires more skill than sleeve work. With the right dog, the right suite and the right decoy, the dog does not see the suite as a prey reward, but an extension of the decoy. You can tell when the decoy slips the suite and the dog, without any training spits the suite and focuses on the man.

by duke1965 on 15 August 2019 - 15:08

I hate when people make stupid statements like that LOL….with the right dog, the right suit and the right decoy,,, DUUHHHH

with the right dog it doesnot matter if he is worked on a sleeve either


by emoryg on 15 August 2019 - 16:08

Here are two of my  Basically it was any officer I could find who would put on the jacket and stand there with one arm out to the side.  The uniformed officers wore dry cleaned and pressed uniforms, with everything shined and polished.  Not exactly the best clothes for playing with dogs, so I was lucky to have them help me.  The second officer was a big guy, super nice, polite and friendly.  He had a cool first name, Cannon.  A few years later he drowned at the lake. 

On Wednesday we had a ten hour training day, so all the handlers came in and took time feeding bites to the dogs.   It was a little better, plus if someone got hurt they just laughed it off instead of filling out worker comp claims.

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