Athos at 3 years and 8 months - Page 3

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TITO VOM FINKENSCHLAG IPO3 KKL V9 BSZS 2017, VA2 B
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deacon

by deacon on 18 November 2017 - 01:11

He looks just fine! Keep it up!

by Centurian on 18 November 2017 - 13:11

for the general reader ...

Apple .. 6 years ago a person who placed 2nd in the USA National Sch team came to me . He was disturbed because the judge took off 2 points in the National Trial because in the stand in motion the dog stepped 1 more foot before locking up . He turned to me and said " I have to ' cap his drive' . I turned to him and said ," yes you have to clean that up , but he is doing that because the way you have taught him " . This is what I am trying to have the reader understand... the concept of "capping drive" is faulty because it is the teaching that is faulty. I forgo here teaching a good way for that exercise. So you tell me , I don't know what I am talking about.

I had a friend bring his Sch 3 GS to me .. so I did a bite seesion with his dog . At the end of the session I put a sleeve on the ground and challenged the dog. The dog protected the sleeve well . At the end of the bite work session , I threw a sleeve on the ground and went to pick it up in front of the dog. The dog went for the sleeve the same time I did. I said to the owner , tell your dog to leave it alone, - as I went to get the sleeve again , the dog also went for the sleeve. So I said to him .. this is bad , very bad training ! Did you not tell your dog to leave it alone ? !!! Sch 3 obedience and he can't leave the sleeve alone , what a hoot.
Another example of someone thinking that the drive of the dog had to be capped. I said , this is Sch 3 dog , why when tell the dog to leve it alone , it cannot ? For the reader : this is because when the dog was trained they felt they had to pump this dog up in drive , yet they did not balance the dog out in doing so . They failed also to teach this dog , impulse control , the ability to control itself , self control. That is where the stupid idea of having to neutralize behavior is shuffled in .An excuse for the failure to teach the dog correctly in the first place with balance . Goodness gracious , a Sh 3 GS cannot leave it . Even home companion dogs are taught that , leave it.

I brought out my GS , no collar , no leash , had the dog right beside the decoy suiting up . . After the bite session I had the decoy undress right beside my dog. Then we did sleeve more work with my dog. After sleeve work I had the decoy , throw the sleeve on the ground , platzed my dog in front and told the fellow that owned the Sch 3 dog to go pick up the sleeve. give the dog a bite . He did . now I said put the sleeve back on the ground . I said to the dog ' leave it" and had the fellow pick the sleeve up without the dog even so much moving a muscle.

So I repeat... If I dog has ability , is ready , willing and able to perform a behavior , i.e. bite work , why does one need to do 'drive promotion' ? And If that dog is taught correctly , there is no need to cap the drive , in other words , go back and clean matters up.

So Apple when you write that I don't know .. that, to really really understand ... ideas of drive promotion , capping the drive , leaking... they exist because of the inabliltiy for some one to understand the dog .. in many cases trying to make the dog what it is not from a genetic point of view and sh*****t training that necessaitates going back and cleaning the inadequate performance up. When I hear capping , neutralizing etc etc that tells me some one can 'work ' a dog , but makes me wonder about their capacity to teach a dog.

Apple can't you see that the dog is problem solving . That is because the 'giving of the treat ' had become an intergral part of the perfromance. The dog is anticipating getting the treat and that is foremost in the dog's mind before performing the task is. Again , people get so stuck in methodology , techniques , the ol'notion of Sch way of they can't ever have the possiblity of bettering themselves.

Apple I once was trained and tested to think as you do ... But that is what Sch does... it locks peole into such a choreogrpahyand mindset that they ncan't look beyond their own nose.
Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 18 November 2017 - 15:11

BTW. The reason he is leaking (I don't know what else to name it) is because of me. I created that because I am too slow, anticipation escalates into frustration (ALWAYS) and frustration creates leaking. Yes, this is me. I'm the big lady on crutches and for a long time I had given up hope that I was ever going to be able to title my dog and so I let him get away with things because I thought it didn't matter anyways. Well, it matters. Because Never say Never.

Anyhow, here, have some fun. Not sure how many oldschool dutch people would turn around in their grave seeing this and I'm pretty sure a few people here can't even stand the idea of a Bark and Hold rewarded with Food and Ball, but once the helper comes into the picture it's going to be a whole different ballgame anyways. ;)




Building the Transport from Sandra King on Vimeo.


 

by Centurian on 18 November 2017 - 19:11

BE
Yes and No ... Yes because you hadn't taught your dog patience .

And No .... because if one uses a clicker in training the purpose of the auditory signal is not to mark , i.e signify to the dog , the exactt , precise , split second of the moment of a second , the exact part of that behavior , you approve. But also what is as critically important is that it also is a communican .
Pavlovian classical conditioning where by there is stimulus -behavior -reward and in that exact order for the dog to make the association . The reward must generally be presented within a second of time of the behavior ending . Timing is critical in classical conditioning. In Pavlovian Class. Cond. slowness does not allow the dog to generally make the connection.
In clicker training .... and I want to make clear , the same premise involved in clicker training can take place with your mouth substituted in lieu of the clicker, does not nessitate that you give the treat exactly immediately when the behavior is finished. If my dog is motivated and needs to bite , or food.... I can be 50 yards away and the dog learns and becomes patient for me to return to it for either the bite or food . Timing is not a precise relevent factor.
What that means to you is : that even if I am in the conext of just putzing around or having plain ol fun, When the dog has learned on my cue to jump the hurdle and it knows to go to it's place and sit , i.e on the mat , I can take my blessed time to go and give the dog a bite. My speed and timing doesn't entirely matter ... When that step in hurdle jumping is down pat , then I can go to the next step of releasing the dog and having it jump back over the hurdle to me . Again , I do not teach the dog to anticipate the jumping back nor when it comes back do I purposely give the tug a bite or food , once it has come back to heel . I wait ... release the dog , walk a few steps then the dog gets it goal , to pay bite on the tug or food . The biting of the tugor the food does not become part of the dog's performance ..Rather it is seperate and apart.. Moments after. The dog learns that the way to Eventually** playing bite tug with me is through performing... and performing exactly. The dog learns patience and to wait.
Why do I do this ? Because dogs are always problem solving and looking for the most proficient way to reach their aim/goal. And because dogs alwayswill gravitate to a stimulus , towards reaching their goal. PPredictably expecting the outcome also plays a role in being able to control itself. Patience taught in a dog aids in keeping that anticiaption and problem solving in check .. simply because you have created the mental picture in the dogs mind of what it can with all predictability expect. Again this allows the dog a pathway lending the dog to be more inclined to control itself .
Therefore , does not matter if you are slow , on crutches ... are standing still or are moving... What matters is the predicatble outcome the dog has and knows that it can rely on exhibiting self control. In the video , the first scenario of the dog jumping the hurdle.... this was not those foolish words like leaking , and you don't have to foolishly cap his drive. What you see is after the dog jumped , it gravitated to the treat in your hand because of the anticipation that you were going to give him a treat. That simple . Not you primarily , but the 'treat'. In that moment it did not have the notion or expectation to wait for you , no matter what. So , I am saying it is not his degree of motivation in and of itself , but what he has failed to learn by not having been taught in that fashion.

You want the dog to have hutspa and pizzaz .. I wouldn't take that away from the dog .. the dog is super !!!! I would teach the dog the predictable expectations which will lead to self control and develop patience ." Impulse Control" as others , knowledgable and expereince , in the canine world use... And impulse control is not entirely ' capping the drive " because a dog learning self control comes before or during the teaching , not after the teaching . I hate , for myself , with a passion to have to go back and clean things up because I failed to teach the dog such that it understands what it needs to do .. mentally and overtly ,behaviorally .

Now I don't mean this commentary as a critism .... I amm inyending this for the reader to think about how they interact with thier dogs , how they teach it . Quite often we are hard on the dogs , when in fact they are correct , becasue of how and what they learned or failed to additionally learn . We often corrrect dogs because what we think we taught them is not what they have learned. So ... these people that find the need to cap and to neutralize behavior ought to take a real good look at themselves .. IMOp.

susie

by susie on 18 November 2017 - 19:11

Centurian: "The dog should do what is asked of it - dogs should learn discpiline and part of that is self control and patience"

Discipline, self control, and patience
are very good examples for capping drives and the ability to deal with frustration.
Different words...

What you describe in your last post is not at all different to successful IPO training - the dogs learn to s

susie

by susie on 18 November 2017 - 19:11

stay focussed, well knowing the reward will follow...
In all cases the dog is working for a reward, be it food, praise, toy...

by Centurian on 18 November 2017 - 21:11

It is different .. as I wrote capping a drive is instituted way after the dog is out of control. Control and self descipline are utilized  in the teaching of the discipline , the task and the result is balancing out opposite behaviors -. For examole bitning is balanced out with outing. , in such a manner within the dog that no conflict arises  eperfroming either one .  Correct performance therefore needs no fixing . A dog glady bites , a dog gladly , outs as examples.  There is no need for cappping either behavior because the dog is not out of control and over doing. Capping is just  a way of saying that you have to clean up over exuberance and out of control behavior. Capping is disciplining the dog after the fact .  And that discipling many many times come in the form [ and wronglfully so ] physical ,  asserting , corrections. 

   And Self control is an attribute that permeates the general  ' character ' of the dog throughout and is not just limitted to executing one task.  

Frustration .... that is an emotional state of a dog that is prohibited in absolute from achieving it's goal. In the video , as I wrote the dog was not frustrated for it found a way to gravitate towards the handler in order to get a treat.   And many think frustration leads the dog to perform better with more inensity . Although if used properly it  may increase to a degree the dog's motivation , when frustration hits a certain theshold within the dog ,  this emotion state changes to  one of frenzy ,and franticness.- out of control . Very very counter to the learning /teaching process .. because the dog in that emotional state does not think clearly.  The dog in the video as I have written showed no frustration . 

   Yes Susie , I have seen a good number of IPO dogs well poised....  

yogidog

by yogidog on 18 November 2017 - 22:11

Teaching a dog to control himself is part of the task in bite work or in obedience. But the commands must be clear I call it black and white no grey areas close all doors. So called leaking drive is bad training simple as that.Reward Timeing is off. Correction Timeing is off. no conciseness in what has been asked of the dog. the dog gets away with little things at a time telling the dog to do something 2or3 times. When on the first time there needs to be a correction . Not properly proofing that the dog understands the commands. Taking the lead off to soon and loosing control when the dog is out of position. How do u correct the dog without the lead. Without the foundation of your training been very clear and understood and that means a reward is a promise but also corrections are to. The first position you teach is the last position you teach and anything out of that position is wrong and will not tolerated that is black and white and cuts out all the crap and excuses for bad training.

susie

by susie on 18 November 2017 - 22:11

The behavior of a dog is based on instincts, drives, temperament.

I guess terms like "self control" and "self discipline" don't really fit for dogs.

by Centurian on 18 November 2017 - 23:11

Susie ... behavior also involves thinking.... And INOp that bis one of the assets that make the GSD the best all round , problem solving canine.

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