Training the Bark and Hold - Page 2

OK thanks for explenation so she has some interest in the helper that is a good start ,yes you
teasing her so she become more in drive, If she doing well barking you can reward her with a bite...

I think maybe making a video will be a good idea to get a better opinion about the dog and exercise whats gonna happen...?

She just about jerks me off my feet trying to get to the helper when she's in drive! (And she's only about 55 lbs.!)

I often write to the general reader here that I do not train method and technique. This is a good example . q man and deacon reveal some nice points.
When I interact with a dog , notice I did not say train.. when I interact with a dog the very first cardinal rule is to never interact qwith a dog unless you understand that dog fully. Teaching a dog is not the same as going through a rote exercise. So I qualify what i write to sunsilver because I do not know the make up of your dog . So I share this to start : every dog , aside from temepramnet , has it's own character and style. I have had GS that did not prefer to bark, but they could and would take you down in bite suit in a heart beat. I did not look at this as prey or defense , but what the dog's style was. Once we trained my friend's maligns. all the stimulstion , as one would call it , agitation the dog just stood there and looked at my friend. Obviously , this dog was not agitat4d literally or figuratively . So i took the bite item , approeached the dog , made a movement and the dog came up on me for the bite. my firends looked ... they asked mew for an explanation -my reply: this dog has a different style and you tried to make him fit your mold, this dog .. simply will bite on his terms , not yours !
Let's understand the bark first. : what does the bark mean and represent. ? It means like a dog's tail wagging that is is stimulated. what determines the bark is dog's attitude and intention in the context. What ontext do you want the dog to bark in? If I want my pups to bark in a prey context .. then I do this: I put them behind a fence or keenel door. then I wiggle a flirt pole , . I try to entice a verbal response. Even a little peep , any vocal expression the item moves to the dog . if the pup shuts up immediately the item flees away . And then I , restart the scenario until I get the bark in full . 1 bartk .. thenI pregress to repitious barking. Next i put that barking on cue . After it is on cue I can expect the pup to bark when I give the cue and then I reinforce the barking with a bite.
barking is also a sogn that a dog is either positively or negatively stressed . negative in a way that the bark is an expression of summoning the trops , sort to speak and/ or the barking is a verbal " warning " .

So , what makes your dog bark ... all dogs bark. That is to say when does your dog bark ? What makes your dog ever bark ? That is your key ! If I want to teach a dog, I first teach the dog in my kitchen or backyard... THEN ... and only when I know the dog has understood the concept /idea that I want to teach , do I bring that into a session , on a field , in the streets , wherever the live session is. Understanding this , then I would advise that you to set the dog up in that context to bark . You must understand the factors that prompts the dog to bark . You can later teach the bark on cue . After teaching the dog to bark on cue, you can then transfer that barking behavior to other contexts by giving the dog the cue and helping it .. help it to generalize.

One example. This is an exercise used by me to teach 'home alert' and to increase the dog's suspion level. Most GS will bark when someone rings the door bell. So get someone to ring your dog bell and bang on the door. Again , Sunsilver , I do not know your dog but I am presuming that it will bark . you can help it with your body language and by in a suspicious , clam voice , low and whisper like .. say to the dog : whom is it , who is it " etc. So you know the rest of the teaching.. I do not say reward..... how many times do I have to write if a dog is rewarded and that in a predatorymindset and context , when the reward is not present , or not continued over time , that behavior will extinguish. Defense berhaviors do not extinguish over time . So I say rather than reward, " Reinforce that dogs behavior" [ and that require a YOU factor primarily and food or something other secondarily ] ! That will stablilize the barking behavior . How do you reinforce that behavior- this is why you need to know the dog. I would say to you reinforce that behavior any and everyway you can . Verbally , with quick light patting - but be careful if you use touch that you do not draw the dog away mentally and physically from barking at the intrude. another approach , when you see the bark manifest is to pair it with dinner. . Set the dog up to bark or if you are at the point the dog will bark on cue then require the dog to bark before it is fed . Another extension of this is to have someone hide behind a bush , a tree , somewhere hide in your yard. get the dog's suspicous level up and reinforce the bark . Generalize this in the public , at a park , anywhere , anytime any place. Then you might have a chance to bring this behavior into the realm of Sch /IPO. I wouln'd start in the blind right away .. but somehwere the helper can nhide on the training field . The bring the blind into the scenarios.
I would be careful, not knowing your dog... in the sense that if pressure or heavy so called defense context is placed onto a og on a training field and within that context the dog flees , or IMOp the dog startys to even back up -- there possibly can be done alot more damage than simply having a dog that is ready willing and capable to engage , and turning into one that has reservations because the pressure was to great for that temeprament of a dog- I don't onow .. don't know the dog. But also remeber my friends maligns.. who BTW even though he didn't like to bite and was unstimulated in rag work went on to be a police dept canine with my friend , who was an officer ! so much for barking and stimulating dogs. not everything is carved in stone !!

Dog must learn to MAKE helper active. Dog initiates, helper reacts. Find some other club/group with helpers who understand this.

Centurian, that sounds pretty much like what I've been trying to do.

Am getting some good ideas here, though for stuff to try, like getting her agitated, then releasing her when the helper is stationary, but looks like he's ready to bolt. Also, not releasing her until she give some good, strong barks, and tying a cue word to the barking.

She loves the flirt pole, because Melba worked her with it before I even bought her, so I might try that for triggering a bark, rather than a ball or the bite bag. Just might do the trick...

The one time I KNOW she was really in defense mode was last year, the last time I visited my mom at her place before she went into hospital. She got up to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, and Eska was lying outside my bedroom door, and scared the daylights out of me when she started barking at Mom!

Mom was a dog lover too, so we both laughed at it. Definitely a defensive bark - Eska had met her numerous times, and got along great with her, but obviously felt she shouldn't be sneaking around in the dark, while she was on guard outside my door!

 

I don,t wanna speculate to you sunsilver

But also it can be a fault in training maybe something get wrong with buidling up the the dog
have seen dogs with the same problems most of time it was a handler / helper fault or handler work too much
with different helpers with not te right knowledge how to work bacause they don,t understand the right training for the dog? Dog become unsure

A lot of helpers train too much in same routine . but not every dog is the same

To get an honest   opinion  is  see the whole process handler vs dog vs helpers... IMO   Good training dogs its all about details

Helpers who can read dogs very well   are gold worth  ( also handlers)

 

Sunsilver
Every dog is sooo different. i know that you know this .
If I was in your situation I would forget the helper unless the helper understands this dog and knows that the dog will bark, or can guesstimate in a situation the dog , if patient , ther dog will offer, at minimum anything of vocalization approximating a bark. I am at a lttle disadvantage not seeing the dog or you , but... what I often see are helpers doing things over and over again and they don't know enough to stop and to do something different. IMOp , if I put the dog in front of a helper with no reasonable sureness the dog will barkor begin to offer something even a small vocalization , then I don't put my dog in front of the helper.
Also , peding your intention , and if is just for sport, IMOp , then you may not need a defensive bark. Some barks in the bark/hold is the dog's way of asking for a bite on the sleeve , Yes ? Then if you deem that is all that you need. Then consider , pairing a small vocalization from the dog with a bite. Pending the temeperament of the dog that could be a starting point and then add pressure by the helper.
What koots writes is true... most often I will give an invitation to the dog.. in animal language to interact.. if I see the dog comply with the invitation then i do nothing.. except have patience . that is to say I wait for thre slightest vocalization from the dog then I will prespond to that . This IMOp gives the dog a sense of control in the situation , is non threatening . This allows me the opportunityn to shape a bark behavior !. Sometimes I see helper making the mistake of putting thier expectations on the dog , right away they think a dog has to bark like Rambo. For many dogs , this is a mistake .. a big mistake.

Yes try a flirt pole. But as I just wrote , if at first you don't get ' a bark ' that is ok ... If the dog even whimpers .. give the bite !... Because then you can hold for longer and / or more intense whimper. You can in the lingo : shape this bark behavior with successive approximation. When you do get a bark you legnthen the barking interval and intensity using the flirt pole. SO... again the two biggest mistakes : doing to much to fast and not being Patient !! I would not go to the helper , not yet. I would then try a bite tube on the filrt pole - get the dog to bite. I also would generalize to a puppy sleeve on a firt pole .. then go back if need be. instrad of flirt pole , the item of choice on a few feet rope. .. that is to say I want the item closer to my body as the dog barks ... eventually getting the dog to bark when I hold the tug or puppy sleeve. then transfer that to putting that onto your arm . also , as I wrote ... I gneralize right away eveything I do with my dogs, even pups, anywhere , anytime , anyplace. Then I introduce the helper. and withn the article on a rope .. then close to his body....

BTW ... I do not advocate teaching the bark and hold with the dog going to the blind !! Personally I trach the bark and hold : have two boards in front of the helper shulder width apart and funnel the dog from 6 feet ways straight into the helper and have the dog sit, require the bark and then give the bite. WHY? because I see so many helpers sloppily train the entry because thet are so concerned with speed , power and strong bark , that they create problems. Such as the dog going in crooked and hip hopping around within the bark and hold exercise ! then the make a wreak out of the dog trying to go back and fix those behaviors . and that is where i want to hit them on the side of the head , because the dog is doing exactly what they taught it ! So ... when you get to the point where your dog will bark for the tug near your body ... then do the same ... bring the dog into you using 2 boards such that you imprint and condition exactly that b.. the dog barking in front of you straight. That is my* biased approach.. others may do differently .. but that is what I have to say ...

BTW , using to much pressure and defense , to soon / to fast , on some dogs,of some temperaments, will cause the dog to work hectic and frantic in the bark and hold.

Centurian, believe me, I've been giving her the bite at the faintest sound of a whimper! But she hasn't made the connection yet, because she rarely if ever repeats it.

Second-thinking the flirt pole: working alone, long lash on the pole, dog that spins and gets tangled in the leash/tieback, then LUNGES as hard as she can when tangled...I'd need six pairs of hands! Not something I could do on my own, and we quit doing it at club because it was just too dangerous. It was actually the first exercise they ever tried with her.

Going to go with the decoy getting her aroused through quick prey-type movement, then see if she will bark at him when he's stationary, and reward her with the bite if she does.

Looking at this from a different angle for a mo, there are other reasons than doing Bark & Hold, for teaching dogs to bark when required. Completely outside the IPO etc field.

Trainers often say, or write, that it is 'easy' to teach a dog to bark when you want it to. In fact, teaching a dog to bark is often recommended as a way in to getting a dog to shut up on command, too !

But there are some dogs that are not, naturally to them, very barky. I sympathised with your OP Sunny because I have been there; I have done all that was recommended to me to encourage a dog to "Speak" but sometimes failed. As I wasn't trying to go on to trial the dog
it didn't matter if I gave up at that point - but clearly you want to succeed. So maybe it would help to think about when and where this dog actually does bark. What prompts it ? Does she get 'sushed' because of inconvenience to others, or anything like that which may have convinced her she does not / should not make a lot of noise, at home for example ? If you can get behind everything else in her life that might have some influence on whether she barks or not, that might give you some more clues on how best to proceed.

Also, any chance of you being able to contact the helper who left the club ?

Maybe try and get him to give you some 1-2-1 time ?

 

I guess ( not knowing your dog and its training ) Deacon and Koots are right.
Sounds like your dog learned to bite "only", like the dogs 20 + years ago.
Today the dogs learn: As soon as I bite the game starts...

She should have learned " I start the game by barking, the bite will follow " - instead she learned " there is a decoy (or a prey item - whatever the motivation) - in case the item moves I want to bite as soon as possible ".

Wrong foundation work, but still common, even over here, don´t blame the "helper", who is willing to work your dog, he may not have known better.

In case you are not able to find a suitable trigger at home ( pretty difficult at that age, and with a dog not barking a lot at all ) the helper needs to understand that the DOG has to start  the game by barking, not the helper.

I´d try a longer distance dog/helper, only minor movement from the helper, as soon as the dog barks the helper ( the prey ) running away, you praising, using the same word ( I use "voran" ), afterwards the helper coming closer, like a dance - may need some weeks, but may help. No bite without bark = frustration.

Good luck! You have to deal with genetics ( the will to bark ) and equipment ( in this case the helper ) -
but never forget - even a not barking dog is able to title ... :)