When will people learn about training methods - Page 2

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by sagey on 24 November 2015 - 04:11

Sunsilver writes:
"My training is becoming more and more positive as I learn. ( I grew up with old-school Kohler methods.)"
~~~
The Koehler method of dog training is very positive. He just did not advocate using toys or treats as rewards. He did, however, very much emphasize the importance of praise which is very much a form of positive reinforcement. In fact it is my favorite type of positive reinforcement: I always have it available and it keeps the dog focused on me for me rather than for the food or the toy I may be holding.
Koehler also strongly emphasized fairness in dog training and made it clear that it would not be fair to ever correct a dog before one has fully taught a dog what a command means. He was very much about fairness.
William Koehler died before I learned his training method, but I have thanked him in my thoughts many, many times. I have never found another training method that does such an amazing job of teaching a dog the basic obedience skills, and having the dog be truly reliable in them, in such a short period of time (about 12 weeks), both on leash and off, as his. As he stated so well: "Reliability off lead should always be the most significant criterion when evaluating and comparing training methods." (Koehler, 1990) Amen to that.

by Allan1955 on 24 November 2015 - 12:11

To be honest i don't care much for people trying to reinvent the wheel in terms of positive/negative training or old style vs new style training.

Training must be adapted to the dog your training and not to every dog in the word.

However the trainer in the video chose this method, while there certainly other methods to achieve the same result.

Imo that is abuse.

 


Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 24 November 2015 - 12:11

Sagey, I like Kohler. Most people aren't aware that he did training for the movies, including the original "The Incredible Journey" film, and "That Darn Cat". Imagine trying to train a bunch of Siamese cats with heavy-handed methods! Ain't going to happen...

However, there are places where his training crossed the line. For chewing, he recommended putting a piece of the thing the dog chewed in its mouth, and taping its mouth shut for awhile. For digging, he told the owner to fill the hole with water, and stick the dog's head in it.

Mindhunt

by Mindhunt on 26 November 2015 - 00:11

Many people misunderstand positive methods to mean only toys/treats and no consequences. That is incorrect. There are consequences; firm, fair, consistent, immediate, and just enough to teach the dog that the behavior was unacceptable. I have a few good friends who have been trainers 30+ years each and most advocate reward over force and pain. If you must resort to pain every time to correct your dog no matter how strong willed, then it is time to re-evaluate your training methods.

Sometimes you may need to resort to a "Come to Jesus" moment with your dog if it's life depends on it, but that is not your go-to method, if it is then you have issues that have nothing to do with dogs. To use pain like pulling a dog up by its ears and then slapping the s**t out of it in its face is abuse, plain and simple. I don't care what the dog did just before the abuse.

 

Dobermannmann you don't know my friends who has successfully trained working dogs for 30+ years each and are positive/motivation based.  That was abuse and it is everyone's business, if someone is ok with what this trainer did then that person has some issues of their own.........Wink Smile

 

Sunsilver, I agree, some older trainers had good ideas but then again, they also had some pretty nasty cruel ideas as well......I agree your "Come to Jesus" moment with yours was a safety issue What Smile


by Gustav on 26 November 2015 - 16:11

@mindhunt.....it seems that you are resolute in your beliefs in training methods, so it really doesn't matter how others view it. Not saying you are right or wrong, it's like I know people that think allowing a GS to live outside is tantamount to abuse. Never mind the breed was originally created to work outside and even reside outside for months at a time in all types of climate.....for THEM if dog isn't under a roof then they are abused. My point is training methods vary creating with different thresholds for compulsion depending on circumstances and type of dog. So what's the point!


Mindhunt

by Mindhunt on 26 November 2015 - 23:11

Gustav,  Current research with current technologies into canid (domestic and wild) learning, cognition, affect, and motivation has shown force/punishment does not work with how canids/dogs learn, yes it is a quick fix with quick results.  It is not that I am resolute in my beliefs to the exclusion of other methods, it's that I want to train my dogs in the methods that they learn best with.  Lobotomies and ECT were the state of the art cures for many mental illnesses not that long ago, current research with current technology has shown how incorrect and ineffective these methods were; however, there are still those psychiatrists today who swear by these methods and still use them despite the long term damage these methods do.  Lobotomies and ECT were a quick fix for depression, anxiety, OCD, etc., what it did was damage the brain so it APPEARED to solve the problem (never did solve the problem, just rendered the person incapable in many cases of behaving as they did before, the underlying problem still existed).  Same with those trainers that swear by force/punishment methods, it APPEARS to solve the training problem while doing nothing for the underlying issues.


bubbabooboo

by bubbabooboo on 27 November 2015 - 00:11

Trust and respect between the student and the teacher are required by both for learning to be productive and self perpetuating. The student must trust and respect the teacher and the teacher must trust and respect the student in equal portions for teaching and learning to build on itself and flourish. Using punishment and domination to force cooperation by the student destroys trust by the student and destroys respect for the student by the teacher ( trainer ). The student must learn to trust in training and actions derived from a chain of outcomes and rehearsed actions without fear of unfair judgements and assumptions by the teacher. The teacher must assume that the student is open to training and resolved to build on fair and consistent repetition of the training steps. Fear and domination as training tools are doomed to destroy trust and respect and it is not a matter of if but of when the use of negative reinforcement will diminish trust and respect in the student/teacher relationship which results in diminished learning and teaching ability. The saying is I believe " the more you use force to teach .... the more force you must use to teach".

Kinolog

by Kinolog on 28 November 2015 - 23:11

I have no intention to preach to the choir when it comes to dog training. For me, I find it fascinating how working with dogs makes me think of my clinical practice.

There are standardized methods of treatment that have more importance to professional ethics and liability, and reimbursement. A practitioner's orientation can be very personal and affects what choices he or she makes in treating individual clients. On top of managing counter-transference, one has to carefully consider what approach is most helpful to an individual client.

When dealing with a dog or person that has been screwed up by past experience, you absolutely need to keep your ego out of it. If you are dealing with a person who has the most challenging patterns of behavior, such as those that come with certain personality disorders, the most therapeutically effective approach often takes you away from those new age, feel good techniques. (Puts me in mind of someone who said that there was no more stigma against mentall illness and that her patients stigmatize themselves. She also said that giving someone a psychiatric diagnosis was discriminatory. Screwy social worker.) In the end, you must be absolutely pragmatic and proceed with utmost dispassion.

The idea that you can raise anything and everything with only reinforcement and without correction or punishment is highly naiive and this delusion belongs to those who believe that they have never made a mistake, even one when they thought they were doing everything right.

I just heard something in the news earlier; in this culture where most communication is not face to face, empathy for others has declined about 33%. So people rant and rave about only rewarding good behavior and never using any type of punishment are only trying to appeal to those extremists who feel so morally superior because they can parrot politically correct bull shit. This is a nifty defense mechanism called reaction formation. In private, they often have severely disordered aspects in their lives though they appear highly successful to others. They are the ones who condemn all methods of humane correction, then they go home to beat their wife, kids, and dog in private.

And you can take that to the bank!


Mindhunt

by Mindhunt on 30 November 2015 - 00:11

You can't use positive methods without non-painful corrections.  That said Kinolog, total positive regard, empathy, understanding, non-judgment, and safe environment to be able to explore is paramount in clinical practice and I use that totally Wink Smile






 


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