Main > The long bite (10 replies)
The long bite
by AandA on 01 April 2008 - 09:28
In a previous thread it was mentioned that due to the force & momentum on the long bite the decoy will purposely move and turn to prevent a great likelihood of severe injury to the dog. Logically this makes sense but what happens in real life?
Would a PPD, Police, Patrol dog etc use the same amount of speed & force in a comparable situation and thus be put in a position of receiving severe injury ( and possibly allowing the criminal to escape)? I understand that part of such a dog's job is to "take the first bullet" so to speak but is not the priority in most cases to apprehend the criminal in the safest manner for both dog & handler?
After all the world's best linebacker ain't much good when he's been stretchered of the field after the first tackle.
by slade on 01 April 2008 - 10:18
In the street guys run away instead of head on (escape bite,prey) so all the momentum is going the same way.Most dogs in trainng are conditioned to taking stick hits an most bite an fight harder.So like a knpv style long bite I think the dogs drives get kicked up an he now fights harder.
by cledford on 01 April 2008 - 18:32
I know some stupid police trainers who consider it a rite of passage to turn a dog loose on a new decoy and have him take the full frontal blow of the dog hitting him on a long attack. Bad for the dog, bad for the helper. Some might make the point that police dogs should train as they do in the real world and people they bite aren't going to roll and absorb the impact like a good schutzhund helper. On the other hand, most people aren't going to stand and take a bite either and are going to be running or covering up. I'd guess that a small (very small) number of street bites might involve drunk or high people WHO ARE ATTACKING INTO the team - but I would think this the exception, vs. the rule. Under such circumstances it might make sense for the dog to have some experience in such a bite - but back to my main point - these guys are during it for fun and hazing of new handlers/decoys, not for a valid training reason. IMHO, once again shows the following, never give something you want taken care of to a government worker with no oversight and many, many police K9 trainers don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. It perturbs me that virtually every time I run into one as they seem to have self opinions granting themselves expert status on all issues dog - but most are horrible trainers and lousy handlers. I remember watching the "World Police Dog" championships on Animal Planet a few years back. Heck, I've seen better handling, bitework, and obedience at club trials.
by Rezkat5 on 01 April 2008 - 22:26
many police K9 trainers don't know their ass from a hole in the ground....
I've heard that before, from a couple of cops too. :)
by Rezkat5 on 02 April 2008 - 01:28
by Slamdunc on 04 April 2008 - 01:41
Police K-9 handlers never want there dog "jammed" in training. Calvin how many dogs have you decoyed for? What dept are you a canine handler for? Most down field bites in actual police work are never the length of a Schutzhund courage test. Also the bad guy is usually running away, which makes it more of an escape bite and not a courage test. On occasion, a bad guy who does not want o go to jail, will fight the dog and the other cops. These dogs are trained differently than sport dogs and to generalize are harder and more "civil" than the bulk of schutzhund dogs. Police k-9's do sometimes get hurt while working fighting a bad guy. Just as sport dogs can get hurt during training. I have been hurt while fighting a bad guy and I have been bitten and had back and arm injuries while doing bite work in Schutzhund. Just like Schutzhund, Police k-9 work is a contact sport. I do everything I can on a daily basis to avoid getting hurt while at work, the K-9 guys do everything they can to avoid the dog getting hurt.
Back to calvin's statement, I don't know of any handler that would ever take a chance on his dog getting hurt in training by a new decoy. As a matter of fact any decoy in our K-9 schools that jams a dog, does pushups and is reprimanded. There is no right of passage to jam a dog. The K-9 guys are harder on the decoys than people at the local club level would ever be.
by cledford on 04 April 2008 - 02:56
Your dept sounds like the exception - not the rule. I started doing K9 decoy work while a cop in the USAF. Wasn't a dog handler but if the proverbial "bite suit fit" you were good to go. My law enforcement carrier spanned 7 years, 2 states, at both the local and federal levels. Recently, I've been doing helper work for going over a year, on top of my almost 3 years in the sport. I stand by my comments that most police K9 handlers I've seen (and I've been in the position to see many) are horrible. Training methods are typically a decade or more behind the times and I don't want to even get started on the breeding that goes into many of the dogs used.
Like everything else in life, I'm sure there very good programs out there, some very bad and many in between. From what I've seen, the in between tends to lean towards to "no so good," yet try and tell a K9 handler or trainer something he doesn't know - it's an interesting conversation for sure.
Congratulations on your program it sounds like it is put together right.
by deacon on 04 April 2008 - 14:58
> Calvin I am in agreement with the suit. Every PSD seminar I have instructed at I always observe the group asking who has not been in a suit yet? the subject is placed in suit and he is hit by several dogs until he can no longer stand from exhaustion. Stupid for not letting him observe the proper method to safely take a hit and how to avoid potential injury to himself or the K-9.
> As far as the long bite(courage) test for my PSD teams, I instruct them as the dog leaves the ground for the bite they are to take a step back prior to being engaged so the dog hits him backing away ,thus avoiding injury to the dog, now the quarry often times goes to the ground using this method but it gives the dog in my opinion a boost in his confidence.
by Mindhunt on 04 April 2008 - 20:12
I guess I am pretty lucky with my trainer then. He has trained dogs for 25 years and his mantras are:
"The dog comes first" do what the dog needs, dog sets the training schedule not the handler and not the department. He will stress them, challenge them, and reward the living jeepers out of them. The dog needs to feel good and confident about themselves, what they do, and their handlers. That way, they can kick butt when they need to, and still be gentle around non-criminal types.
"Keep your ego out of it" don't take what the dog does personal. If your dog is your testosterone or testicles, then you need to find a nice fast car and show off that way or go play with sharks at feeding time. If you use your dog to prove how "tough" you are, get the hell out of here and leave your dog, you don't deserve your dog.
"Timing is everything", "remember to breathe", "watch your dog (body language)" and "it is ALWAYS the handler's fault until proven otherwise" just to keep us humble.
He also says it is not protection but "threat recongition and assessment". A properly trained dog can let a child pet him and then go to ripping some bad guy a new one, to letting another child pet him (I use the masculine because it seems most police agencies want males even though I have both and I would trust my and my family's life to either).
He is the first to say he is always learning something new, is never afraid to admit he may have been in error and is always willing to explain why he did what he did during training. He is a teacher by nature and will never be rich because he cares about the dogs and isn't afraid to piss idiots off. I have learned so much from him and I say visit his website and talk to him. He is cool (yes, he can still drive me nutts, I have moments where I want to kick him into next week, but I believe he has my dogs, not my, best interests at heart and isn't afraid to say so).
Ok, I am off my soap box now, afraid I would fall and hurt myself
by sueincc on 04 April 2008 - 20:46
Mindhunt: You are right, it sounds like you have a great trainer. Treat him/her well, they are worth more than their weight in gold and unfortunately, are very scarce, at least in my neck of the woods.
by Mindhunt on 04 April 2008 - 21:05
Sueincc, I thank my lucky stars every day, and I wish others were as lucky. He does travel to seminars
I could never pay what he is worth and he does do trading for training (keep minds out of gutter ). I have helped with his books, taken care of his dogs, and taken over his obediance classes when he is out of town, etc. That too is priceless.
Hector Hernandez and First Class Dog Training in Michigan.