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yogidog

by yogidog on 07 January 2018 - 19:01

Koots I'm on the mind as you that's my way of training in a nut shell

Jessejones

by Jessejones on 07 January 2018 - 20:01

Centurian,
I‘m on board with you.
I trained my last dog in Germany where I did lots of off leash training because the leash laws are lax or non existent in the city I lived. Lots of huge parks, not at all comparable to the US, where i now moved back to, and off leash is a big no-no in my area...and here, there are only dog parks, which for me is the worst invention since the atom bomb.
I feel that off leash training really strengthened the bond between me and my dog, enormously, and I‘m struggling now with my new 6 mo old shepherd in training him in the states, of course only on-leash/no dog parks. And am having issues with barking/lunging towards other dogs now that I’m trying to work through. All helpful comments are appreciated, especially your thoughts Centurian.
With the more relaxed leash laws, and perhaps a bit more responsible dog ownership over there ( I am American, so no, I’m not slamming the USA), but in general I felt that dogs learned their dog manners better and after a sniff or two with his chosen dogs, my dog always returned right to my side as did the other dogs to their respective people. Because he knows that all the fun and food was with me only and not the other dog. And this was an unneutered male as neutering in not common over there. If in a safe area, the dog needs to experience a certain illusion of freedom, exploration, but that nothing out there is more fun than me. If he never gets that experience, he will always think the grass is greener with other dogs or other things and will want to experience it (just like we would...a dog is no different than we are in that sense).
Having said that, of course you need to know, and I mean KNOW, your dog first, having trained him every day, and even every minute should really be an excersise in training, whether consciously for the dog or not. Every recall is fun...either a game or food of different values, or an exciting new discovery (hiding a stick/toy or food, or myself, from him for example) Games were always training too. This even capped his hunting drive. When in opened woods, even if spying a deer, I needed to stay aware of him at all times, to cap, IN the SECOND of his arousal...with a loud NEIN, followed by KOMM, and a huge treat jack-pot payout. And that was that.
I’m not saying this works with all dogs, and especially not with a new dog...but it is possible, and not even hard if one stays consistent, and wonderful when collaboration is so complete with your dog. I’m hoping to get to that stage with my new guy.

by Centurian on 08 January 2018 - 15:01

Ok .. what the posters write to degrees have merit. I want to make clear , that I am discussing the the " Kind * of usage " of the leash . There is a differentiation abstractly to how , when and why the leash is used. For example , I can place a leash on the dog to keep the dog safe while teaching or in order. Can a leash be used as communication device , yes ,,, but so can I be...to guide a dog into a position , yes , but so can I be the guide, to so called correct a dog , yes , but so can I ... [ BTW, Many many many corrections with a leash in many peoples hands are so ineffective because the exact moment leash affects the dog , is way after the dog has the time to make the association unless you use it while the dog is thinking rather than after the dog has done what it has done ] . For the record ' I am not advocating or trying to convince anyone to do what I do *** . I've had a lifetime of experience.

Koots ... you are correct, never request something of a dog or a child that you are not in a position to follow through on. Every child and dog at some point will try to expand the boundaries. That is normal. The question becomes , and that is the art of rearing , how does one discipline the breaking of the rules and disobedience . I don't oppose using a leash for this , if used correctly ... but I simultaneously want the dog to realize that I am the one in control . Ditto for the electronic collar . I do not in anyway oppose it's use , and is it another viable tool. However , the same notion I want to put forth with usage that too . The biggest mistake novice makes with the e collar is , letting the dog learn: collar on I listen and collar I can choose to not listen . So again , we discuss the usage* of the collar and even at that I come back to square one : the dog has to ultimately respond to me ! Now again , I don't try to convince anyone they should be this way . this works for me ...

NePoPo ... Let me first qualify before I write. 30+ years ago I thoroughly mastered Classical and Instrumental Conditioning. All Child rearing and canine teaching is predicated on one , or at times both of these , learning fundamentals . Nothing new under the sun here. In the past I was tested and certified in the use of e collar training with canines . Learned and was tested to use the e collar with or without every single Schutzhund exercise . So try to understand this ... Nepopo and Bart Bellon . I give the highest acknowledgment for what he teaches and can do with the dogs. I take nothing away from his accomplishments.
But in reality for me there is nothing new here. I liken this to years ago the new buzz was to do " Table Training" . First of all I used to put my puppies on the kitchen counter to teach , platz , sit , down etc. Teaching on a table was not new. But then the new buzz utilized the table training into the protection aspect of Sch and other sports. But it is another way , not right , not wrong , ? any better .. I don't know. But Yogi as you have seen my write, ... and this is personal , not meant to convince anyone , when I teach a lesson I teach the lesson to the pup or dog with every type and kind of distraction within the environment that I can ! I tech puppy rag work with other dogs around , in the mud , in water , around city noise. I don't care. tracking .. I purposely set the track the very very first time with the wild animals that have walked through my yard. Or whee other people and dogs have walked at other locations.
Now I don't take away from Bart Bellon ... But to share my thoughts. Although an electrical stimulus can be a positive event.. I put this off for discussion now . Let me state that in all learning with children and dogs there is always an element of stress. Even with positive methods and even when having fun , in the learning there is an element of stress. I agree Yogi with you whole heartedly , I want my dogs to think , problem solve and make choices . The reason being is that if the dog decides to make a choice and it is successful in achieving it's goal then that behavior becomes more ingrained and reliable within the dog. Now my personal feeling about this is that stress always is part of the learning process , even positive learning, then my preference is to keep everything as most stress free and positive with motivation as possible . I don't knock Nepopo , it is what it is ,. And for me , I try to have the dog interact with me , I try to keep myself within the dog's head at all times. I don't care about flashiness or points. to me I am well accomplished , have nothing else in my life to prove or achieve with my dogs , so the notion of going to the ends for points , it is meaningless to me. Actually an absurdity , I never ever became the best at what I could be through my dogs. Yet at the same time I can bring out all my dogs are with simplicity. I than God have the ability to teach my dogs. For example I can taech a pup in a whisper the concept of NO or LEAVE It in 15 seconds. I can teach my dogs to go to a training box for 'change in position i.e. down , sits , stand in a matter of minutes. I don't meed an e collar for that. But this is my biased , personal opinion ....

by Centurian on 08 January 2018 - 18:01

Jesse Just read your post
Why I teach a dog without collar or leash is for some of the following reasons.
Sooner or later most people want to do something with their dog off leash , Yes ? Then in my mind if that is what I also eventually aim for , then why don't I simply teach that from the very very start. To teach not only to execute my direction and request i.e teaching a so called exercise , but more so hand in hand with that is for me to teach the dog to listen TO Me and to me irregardless if it is on a leash or not. So , how in my mind do you want to do protection work , send the dog off leash .. because the dog has to learn some point in that training to listen you , off leash , point blank. And you have to have some MO , even in protection work where the dog is away from you , in the event the dog does not listen , you in some way , in some manner of fashion or form , have to get into the dog's head that it has to listen to you , and that you can and will discipline it.
Also I don't claim that all the ways to teac, will be for all dogs , for all people , all the time. And most often , if I do have my dog on a leash , I am going to be annoyed if my dog just simply doesn't listen to my voice. . That is to say I want my dog to respect me enough that when I say ' no', it stops, when I say ' heel ' , it heels , when I say ' out ' , it outs. Even if it is on a leash , my enforcement not often is with the leash because quite often, I  , in part of the teaching, instill that we are working together and that it is in the interest of the dog to take my cue .


Regarding Nepopo ..... the buzz in recent years in dog training was to be positive and to motivate the dog . Although granted positive never exists unto itself and IMOp what people were doing was not true motivation training many times. But let's talk about true motivational training : Why can not one simply truly motivate the dog such that , if you want him to go to a box or a place on cue , that you can't give  to that dog the understanding , to run like the wind to that place and that box, by simply via his motivation , instead of a little e juice.  20 Years ago in Ring Sport , we recognized sometimes that we want the dog fully watching the decoy and at other times we wanted the dog to look physically and mentally towards us . Bart , employs his system to teach the dog ..target/watch the helper and other times watch the handler. This is no nw concept and we need not use e juice to teach this to a dog. My lack of understanding for this system is that we always did these same scenarios without any e juice ! Never Did.  Do we think the dog is so stupid , so unable to be motivated to do and to discern one from the other and execute each of those when we ask it to without the use of any e juice ? Believe me , when my dog and I were motivated for  him to guard , he more than wanted to key on the decoy , he just wanted the decoy to make a move. Didn't have to teach seperately ' look to target  or   'target the help/decoy'.   Ditto forfor the dog looking toward me . My dog just loved to be with one mind with me , look to me ,  because h  was waitnig for a cue and he knew what was coming next as my cue was his delight ! It is my responsibility to understand my dog so comprehensively that I understand it's needs , thoughts, motivations that enable to develop him and work with me. The difficulty I often see and write about is that teaching your dog is NOT just about the dog ! The handler is ALWAYS as much of the teaching . For me , I don't need a leash to teach the puppy to heel because by the time we get through with each other that dog not only learns heel but mre so , that dog wants to heel more than even I want it toThat is motivation . That is why the leash has it's short comings at times. I often write to teach the dog self control , which diminishes the need for me to control the dog . But if the dog needs some input from me  : then when my dog does not heel correctly , a simple NO or WRONG is sufficient enough. This is not hard to get a dog to heel with exact precision and exactitude step for step. . I always practice everything in my kitchen , even for sport. I ask the dog to heel no matter what I do , where I go ..So , in the begining teaching phase , the dog does not heel with exactitude , guess what , the dinner bowl does not go down . That dog will  well learn incredibly fast  . Exraordinarily fast , lighteneing fast , the dog will learn where it's best interst lies when interacting with me. That will translate to the future in many things. BTW , in Obedience .. behaviors translate to other behaviors !!**** . I don't hit the dog with juice in basic teaching. I otivate and understasnd my dog , as Jesse points out ! I address the dog's MIND ,  ATTITUDE and Motivations. Withholding a need , or as some would prefer , a reward is a discipline in and of itself.

In the teaching process , I get into the mind , soul , heart , emotion , needs of who and what my dog is such that the dog should ultimately do what I want more than what i want it to do. THAT is motivational training and it doesn't have to always mean that I give negative or positive electrical stimulation . Nepopo ... IMOp , is nothing new under the sun .BTW , I recognize different tacts for different dogs.. I don't write this as an absolute methodology nfor every dog ! But for many of my dogs this held true. Better than always for every dog the leash yank and crank !!

Just some thoughts to share with readers.. for whatever ..   There is more than 1 way to skin a cat , I presume. And Iraise my eyebrows  whenI see that a renowned professional  has to do 'table training' or  ' e collar training  ' to best  teach a dog ...


yogidog

by yogidog on 08 January 2018 - 18:01

Cén i don't understand how u can get total attention from a young puppy from the first time u start in printing your excise especially with all sorts of distraction that the pup would not have come accustom to at a young age. At what age would you start training with all distractions. I do agree with positive or negative will always come with a certain amount of stress and I like you I try to limit it. I never seen a young puppy with all distraction follow directions to the T. Even hard with a lead and I never set the dog up to fail. It's very interesting and something I would like to experience. I always work to get into the head of my dogs and eventually i do become the dogs world and the puppy realises it is much more beneficial to be beside me and work for me but I do this with no distraction till the pup learns the game


Jessejones

by Jessejones on 08 January 2018 - 18:01

I have an ecollar, took a course...used it for some training. But after a very short while, I stopped using it and it has been sitting in my closet collecting dust for about 7 years now. I didn’t like the way it took the brightness, and joy of doing, spring of step, out of my dogs eyes and movements. (Edit: even with a very low stim/nick) For myself, I had better results without it. I don’t train for a particular sport, only for a good dog. It seems many here are training IPO, so my comments might be simplistic. Sorry if so.
I can see the usefulness of an ecollar though. Especially if one is training a dog that is not your own, and/or you need quick results.
I also marvel at other dog sports like - don’t laugh- dog dancing. What an amazing feat some accomplish with only clicker training and they wouldn’t dream of using an ecollar. Ok, maybe softer dogs...but still, food for thought.
If the dog is your own dog, and you live with it every day....controlling every. single. resource. that the dog gets in a given day, is easier for me in the long run in getting a reliable reaction by letting the dog make that decision of yes or no. IPO, protection, ring sports, may need different approaches.


by Centurian on 09 January 2018 - 00:01

Yogi .. I answered your question and tried to edit the post and I lost the whole comment. In short , I get not only intent focus and attention but also the intense desire of the puppy /dog to engage and interact with me. Actually , using the distractions greatly aids in creating these .. I explained this in the lost post .. but I will try tomorrow or the next few days to write the post again.

by Centurian on 09 January 2018 - 14:01

Yogi
Everything we need to know to teach a dog is similar to how we would teach a child with the consideration that dogs are more instinctive . We can get anything we want [ within reason and ability ] from another person by giving that person what it wants . Ditto : we can anything we want from a dog by simply giving to the dog what it wants/needs.

Rather than using the word imprint , I would substitute the term " successive approximation ". In other words teaching little by little in steps. I add that also when I teach a lesson to a dog quite often there is a lesson within the lesson. So what I will describe this is what I want to achieve : I want to have the pup realize that engaging in me is the best way for it to have all it's needs self. I want the pup to understand rules and boundaries. , and that there are consequences and the opposite , good fortune to it's behavior. I want the dog to learn to make the choices that I want it to make without me having to 'tell it to" meaning I start putting the responsibility onto the pup. I never ever say or do anything without fore planning and knowing and as I write always , as best I can , control the context to make the pup successful.

Yogi this is what I do right from the start- first time teaching . I have at least 4 adult dogs in my kitchen which is 18' x 18' with the pup at their breakfast time. I don't care if the pup is 8 weeks , 10 weeks .. I understand the needs of the pup : they love to play and they love to eat. So I platz my adult GSs .. that means lie there and don't move a muscle and also I tell them ' leave it ' , meaning the pup. I take the pup out of the crate.. only when the pup is calm and still.. none of this jumping and pawing the door acting up bit . If we don't have patience then we should not teach children or dogs BTW. I wait until the pup is calm. [ this is the beginning of teaching self control ] . Pup comes out , looking for attention and to play like a fire cracker , yes ? I go off and sit away fro them all and the pup as you can predict will go and try to play with the adults. That is exactly what I want ! Now the dogs ignore as best they can the pup , why .. because I told t hem to ! So the pup after a few moments gets nothing from the adults- no play , no attention etc etc . like a child they look for the next best adult to pester , yes ? In this case the pup now tries it's luck on me . That is what I want . I said the pup .. meaning the pup made the choice , the pup decided. I do not prompt the pup to wander over to me.. This is key .. the pup makes the choice !

Now I have the pup mentally , emotionally and physically where I want it . So I take a toy from my pocket and for a moment interact with the pup , who has just reached one of it's goals , to play ! I don't over stimulate the pup , but enough to keep it's interest. Then for a moment a quickly slip the toy out of sight and when the pup looks up to me , then I like lightening from my hand start doling out the breakfast kibble for a few moments and then I also stop , and say to the pup 'ok', the beginning of communicating to the dog that what I am doing ends and that it is free from the interaction. So I start t begin to teach the dog that it can start to trust and to look to me to fulfill it's needs.Start to teach the pup that there is a beginning and and end to behaviors . I begin to tap into the motivations of the dog such that the dog chooses to engage me and interact with me. . So what happens next ... exactly what I want to happen and plan to happen ... the pup goes away from me ,no collar or leash on the pup remember, to the other dogs !

What happens ..NOTHING... the pup tries harder because it just got me to play , so maybe it can get a dog to play . No can do ! Patience.. in a few moments , again I expect this and it does happen . The pup comes back to me when it is near to me sitting on the floor and the moment, and I mean the split second 1/100 of a second , it looks to my face [ do you have something for me ? do you want to play ? ] I click and treat . Again feeding out the breakfast kibble , This is not a reward !! This is more a ' constant reinforcement' , this time I reinforced immediately , but later I switch reinforcement as I did the first time after the pup interacts with me, then I will feed .

So to recap the pup learns to offer me a behavior , learns to chooses to engage and become attentive to me mentally not just physically [ this is part of relationship ] , begins to learn to ignore what is going on around it and in this case 1 thing matters and nothing else. However another aspect of this is that very quickly when I see the thoughts of the pup understanding then I will increase the time I expect it to attend to me , focus on me and I will increase the amount and degree of distraction. It is my responsibility not to go to much , to fast , to keep the dog engaged and focused . I don't need a collar or a leash to do this !! BTW , I do this teaching in a matter of minutes , I don't have training sessions with my dog 20 minutes but rather 2-3 minutes very very often . The pup never gets bored.

I generalize right away , early once the pup understands . I bring the pup to training class. Now I expect naturally that the pup will look away and I want the pup to look away ! Because the moment the pup takes it's eye's off another dog as it sits in my lap and looks to my face ... Bingo.. reinforcement ! I have just told the dog where it's best interest lies . The dog learns where it's best interest lies and it can translate to this place the behavior that it has learned form the kitchen interaction . People are amazed how calm my GS are and how i n a class of adult dogs , jumping all over the place my pup will look to me like radar. No collar or leash .

BTW , one can do the same with a lead on the dog. Why I write this is because it is not the leash or the absence of the leash that is important. put a leash on and let the dog drag it if need be for other reasons. What is important is what the pup learns ! A leash is a great communicative device. My contention is that when people use the leash , become dependent on it to control the dog in lieu of obedience ! That is my concern. When I taught heel in my classes I frequently had people with their hands off the leash or the leash ties to their pants. . Often I had to tell them , If you think the dog won't do a heel then it won't heel. If you think and act the dog will heel , then it will. The dog senses so much. Put the expectation and responsibility on to the dog. Like children .. the children that excel are those that have had higher expectations placed on to them . hose children that have much lower expectations put on to them , they don't mare the grade as the others that have expectation s do . Ditto , for dogs !!

Now there is much more that I do with my pups right from the start. But Yogi , I try my best to share my thoughts for you , whatever this may or may not be of help. Everyone has to do what they think and feel best for their dog. If you don't have 4 other dogs you can use the same thinking with other kinds of distractions that are reasonable for a pup to handle at it's point in training and maturity.

Jesse , yes the e collar has it's time and place ...... but you are much better off having it collect dust .. not to say that it is not a good tool for some at some times.

yogidog

by yogidog on 09 January 2018 - 15:01

Centurain I get what you are saying I would do the same in the cage making pup stay cam before he gets out and father or mother may be in the room and if so are always in a down that is my switch off for them and the won't move. And the same the pup will be jumping all over them all the same as you have said. Except for one thing I always taught it an excise for the adult dog to make sure he understands no matter what is going on u stay down because I said so. But now I also see the learning for the pup in the way I treat the pup very similar to how you do I just never used it as first lesson for the pup my eyes are open now. Thank you for the time you took to explain because I did not see it till now and never inforced what was happening till I started training missed out in vital time




Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 09 January 2018 - 16:01

I believe we could all do with some timely reminders about (1) timing, and (2) attitude in puppy training, so thanks Centurian. Yogi realises he's perhaps been missing opportunities, as in we get wrapped up in making sure our commands to other dogs are being reinforced but we don't see that we have chances in those same seconds to use the situation to advantage with what we get the pup(s) doing. And (2) the sentence: "If you think the dog won't do a heel, then it won't heel. If you think and act (that) the dog will heel, then it will heel." is so true - we undermine ourselves too often by not really trusting in what we have taught a dog. [Seen this over and over again in Training Clubs and out in public].





 


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