Sable puppy showing in AKC - Page 9

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Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 06 July 2016 - 08:07

[Markobytes] 18.62016 - 19:06
"
if you don't do well one day, you might do well the next before a different judge."
That's the attitude of a good sportsman. But it is NOT the attitude of someone who KNOWS their breed better than the show's judge does. We abandoned all-breeds shows in January 1976, after 5 years where there were only 3 GSD clubs in the whole country, each club allowed ONE ch.show
(plus a couple, of open shows if they could be bothered with events that were purely "practise" - no critiques, no points towards a title) and so one either went to all-breeds shows or one stayed home during the other 49 weekends. During that period we were ring-stewards & call-stewards at nearby shows we weren't interested in showing at (oh the agonies from a Maltese breeder-judge who HATED all the Maltese entrants seen that day. He solved his problem by giving Best Dog and Best Bitch to Babies - that way he avoided awarding CC points without offending too many exhibitors), and I was show treasurer for the 1975 NZKC National (our equivalent of Crufts or Westminster). At all-breeds shows we'd entered we "marked" our catalogue while waiting for the judge to reach our breed - and made few wrong-guesses apart from "placing" dogs that didn't turn up.
In those free-&-easy days we both received invitations to judge - I declined mine, Jeannie accepted hers and became both a ch.show judge and a Breed Surveyor.
In 1974 one of our 3 GSD clubs invited Maxwell Riddle
(USA). After seeing what he did in the dogs, Jeannie refused to allow Falka, our recently acquired champion, to be shown. Among MR's sins were - in a gaiting ring roped as ¾s of a Rugby field - he let each exhibit do a single "away & back" on the shortest side of the ring, and then did ALL his judging on stanced exhibits. I guess he'd never heard that GSDs are supposed to be able to quietly gait soundly for up to 14 hours a day, taking the flock to the day's grazing, holding them there (no fences)
, then returning them to the barn for the night.

People who KNOW their breed expect only minor changes from judge to judge, as a result of different dogs having a good night or a bad night or being a bit "off colour".


"
Always have the respect of the judge and the other exhibitors in mind".
I suspect you meant "
respect for", but either way I disagree. People must EARN respect, not expect it just because of their role or having paid an entry fee.

A couple of times the judging was so bad that afterwards I questioned the judge. The first one
(a Kiwi) decried my bitch's movement - which happened to be her best feature, she being VERY strong & true, albeit not as angulated as the current opposition's. The second (an Aussie) had placed EVERY sable last, except ones that had another sable behind them. And this was a period when NZ's top GSDs were almost all sables - include a brood who was NZKC Dog Of The Year, and a stud who went 3 whole years unbeaten in his sex throughout Australia (where he set a record by being their Grand Victor 3 years in a row, befure handing over to his sone who went almost 3 yars unbeaten in NZ)
and NZ. So - not being entered - I collected about 5 of the best sables from friends, then asked him "What have you got against sables?" The ignorance of his answer floored me! He said "Nothing - I put one Best Of Breed". What he'd put BOB was a double-first-cousin of my stock, and born a tan-point but had undergone extreme black-loss. I guess he thought that grey-sables were "blues".... I was later told that after we'd left, someone in almost every breed he'd judged approached him for an explanation of what he'd done in THEIR breed.



[Reliya] 20.6.2016 - 01:06

"Thank you, Markobytes. I felt like it was pointless to continue and to get angry, so I stopped replying."
If it was me you refer to, it was pointless to START feeling angry. Nothing I wrote was intended to offend. I realise that there are MANY people in your country who are extremely "touchy", and some of them never get used to the way I write. If you travel to Australia and/or NZ you will find that people here are mostly very different to Yanks, and have a very "robust" sense of humour, with lots of apparent curses that are actually terms of endearment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUiwXsH04s8   takes 1 minute to rank various national accents of "English".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZloAjpYSXI   mixes 'Strine & NewZild for 7 busy minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWPwlMv8lNI   is a Kiwi's "take-off" of an Aussie disaster at sea.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPmE3s_HrXg   will introduce you to 'Strine for 8 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZe4O7Ct8mo   is 2 minutes of a Kiwi comedienne whose act exaggerates a NewZild accent.

Returning to the topic:
If you wish to take the time to be soothed, please e-mail me quoting EXACTLY what made you angry
(please include date-&-time-stamp(s), to help me find the whole message or messages the quote or quotes come from - CONTEXT is very important when misunderstandings arise), and I will attempt to explain what my intention was.


[susie] 25.6.2016 - 14:06
"
Believe whatever you want...I don´t care any more."
I believe what I - or such as my SV-member ex-DDR friend who is a show judge + agility judge + obedience judge + training-seminar giver plus translator for her "adopted" nation's kennel club & GSD club - can find evidence of. I'm sorry that the CKEditor went crazy and altered ny chosen sizes in the part of my 25.6.2016 - 05:06 answer responding to you. Those changes DO make it harder for readers to work oput which bits were my questions, which bits were her researched replies, which were my conclusioms - although I DID, as usual, use symbols & colours  to indicate who said what.
As I pointed out, I re-opened the post and TRIED to correct the sizes, but the bug was determined and I could not eradicate it.


[LadyBossGSD] on 27 June 2016 - 20:06

"she received alot of compliments. Heck I wasnt even expecting that much."

On that occasion you were spared the type of "competitor" who, in 1972, saw my wife sign all the GSDs over to me. She first visited a first-importer of Pyrenean Mountain Dogs, and decided that the future parents lacked quality. She then ordered a pup from what was to be NZ's first Irish Wolfhound litter about a year later - until we drove the 520km 6½ hour trip south to go and see the future parents (who were only Juniors at that stage). They were fine, but they demonstrated what Alma Starbuck had written in "The Complete Irish Wolfhound" - during their growth period you have to hand-feed them! Not us - dogs feed themselves or go without (unless they are recovering from serious illness/surgery). Jeannie ended up with a Cairn Terrier, who quickly decided that as she was surrounded by GSDs she must be a GSD and so carried her tail in that scimitar curve, instead of "Terrier-high". It took Jeannie about 18 months to decide to return to GSDs and endure the nasty rivals.

"
There were mostly all showlines at the event , besides my WL entourage."
PLEASE don't use those 2 terms. A pooch either IS a GSD as per FCI#166:
http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/166g01-en.pdf
or it isn't. Too many - especially in the few countries that are NOT members of the FCI - are NOT all-round GSDs, they are exaggerated to suit local show judges or to suit lovers of "spectacular" leaps in DogSport. I can't tell attitude & character from a posed photo, but from what you sent me, your Karma FITS the structural aspects of FCI#166 very closely so far.
Would you classify
Javir  
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=450116
or Saffy   http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=2341555
as a "
show-line" or as a "working-line"? I regard them as worthy GSDs (although I DON'T like the stretched hind-quarter of Javir in that photo. But his antics in videos show that he does have adequate hind-quarter strength) - and if Saffy's hip & elbow scores are satisfactory and her breeder-owner chooses a stud I am happy about, I want a daughter of hers next year! And oh I love Be My Yusha, her DDS (dam's dam's sire) P3 ancestor.

"
Besides that she tried her hand at dock diving as well."
I hope you NEVER take up that activity. When water gets into a dog's ear it does NOT come out easily! When diving, our ears create a much better "bow wave" to dvert water PAST them than do a prick-eared dog's ears.

"
I would post pics but for some reason it never let's me do it in a thread ."
I know THAT feeling. But so far no-one has told me how to get a photo that's stored in my computer our into the CKEditor used by the pdb.

 

Now let's hope that my formatting sticks THIS time - it didn't, first time!
 


LadyBossGSD

by LadyBossGSD on 09 July 2016 - 12:07

Les , I appreciate your detailed response. My use of the term WL/Showline seems to be correct here in the states. Just calling it like I see it. Although I prefer to have structure and substance in my Shepherds others like something different or have different views as to what they prefer. As for the dock diving my male enjoys it & both Kahn and Beauty are avid swimmers. They have not had any ear issues at all as I take extra precautions to insure ears are cleaned & dried everytime they finish any water activities. I do know Shepherds are prone to such things. The compliments Beauty received were from various participants of the show & spectators. The local K9 unit was particularly interested in her. They thought she was absolutely awesome and in fact quite a Beauty. So that in itself made for a good day .Thanks 😉

Markobytes

by Markobytes on 09 July 2016 - 22:07

Mr Pauling, I agree with you that judging should not vary to the extent that you can expect different results the next day. That was my observation after attending approximately seven AKC shows, handling in two. The judging I saw varied, there were multiple breed judges who's breed of choice was not a GSD, who had their own view of what qualities a GSD should posses. Among the judges who are dedicated to the breed, some are open and will breed to the FCI standard. Other AKC judges are totally ignorant of the promise that the German Shepherd Dog Club of America made in order to hold their seat in the WUSV, hate the FCI standard and think it will absolutely ruin the breed. Yes, judging in AKC shows will vary to the point where one judge can hate your dog one day and the next day another judge will love the same dog.
I choose to abide by the SV standards of conformation and system of breed surveys. The judging in the SV system may not be perfect, but it is generally much more consistent than in the AKC.
I might not like or respect the President of the United States, but I respect the office that he holds. I will give due respect to any judge until they give me reason not to respect them. Judges can tell when someone's heart and respect are not there, why should they give any respect in return?


Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 24 July 2016 - 07:07

BOY this thread has grown while I've been busy!

 

[Sunsilver] 16..6.2016 - 12:06
I wish you hadn't chosen THAT

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/uploads/Sunsilver/images/13412867_1156790494343095_5069741832692649486_n.jpg

photo to display.

THE Standard of the GSD, created by the SV and, with only minor modifications, approved by conferences of the EUSV - and nowadays of the WUSV at which the GSDCAmerica had 7 votes and the USCA had 5 votes last time I saw the figures, giving the USA 12 votes (more than any nation except Germany) - and adopted by almost every kennel club in the world EXCEPT in Britain, Canada, NZ, the USA - is at
http://www.fci.be/Nomenclature/Standards/166g01-en.pdf
and contains requirements that a pooch standing as that bitch was does NOT display. The requirements are for
▫ "Neck carriage ... at approx. 45°."
I don't have a protractor, but estimate her neck at 75°.
"The depth of the chest should amount to approx. 45 % to 48 % of the height at the withers".
Her feet are hidden in the grass and I cannot use a measuring stick to compress her mane & chest hair, but from the measurements I took based on where I THINK the bottom of her feet are on the soil, she has 55-to-56% chest over a mere 44-to-45% "daylight" - an evil FASHION that is guaranteed to increase the pooch's weight and reduce its agility and endurance.
"The angulation from shoulder blade and upper arm is ideally 90°, but generally up to 110°."
She is leaning past her fore-legs, and her upper-arm is almost in-line with her fore-legs. A GSD with a CORRECT upper-arm and standing properly should have an angle of 135° between upper-arm & fore-leg if measured inside the elbow angle or 225° if measured on the outside of its elbow angle - at worst the angle should be 155° if measured inside the elbow angle, 205° if measured on the outside of the elbow angle.
"Upper leg and lower leg ... form an angle of approx. 120°."
I THINK her rear-most leg would probably fit that IF her knee and ankle were strong enough to place her knee higher than her heel.
"the hind pastern stands vertically under the hock."
But not in her "leaning forward" stance. Ok - a little inaccuracy about getting the hock aka instep aka "hind pastern" can be accepted in a record shot. My wife used to place a large mirror leaning against a chair outside, so that she could SEE almost exactly what a judge would see - she would then try to memorise what the pooch looked like from her own position, then try to repeat the pose before looking in the mirror to find out what she's got wrong. I was never that interested in posing to please judges, as you will see in the main pic at

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1325022
but if you click on the last photo in her "Bea Bühle's Progress" album you will see how she can stand without assistance, when she is looking for a "replacement Les". I just wish it had been taken on a camera instead of a blurry cell-phone!

In addition, her top-line that
(in that bitch's case) slopes in a straight 23° in ALL of BACK, LOIN and CROUP is NOT the intention of the
"without visible interruption ... croup ... sloping (approx 23° to the horizontal)" wording. BACK, LOIN, CROUP should each be at a slightly different angle, beginning with the BACK
(the 5 bones above the main ribs) being close to level
And

"The hocks are strongly developed and firm" does NOT allow for the unpadded forward hock & heel to be in CONTACT with the ground. Sheep are commonly grazed in hillside areas where the ground is stony - and so the herding breeds must stand on their nails & their padded toes - NOT place their vulnerable pasterns and "insteps" low enough to contact sharp stones.

 

Okay - I appreciate that that was NOT a controlled shoot for advertising the bitch's STRUCTURE - it was a hurried shot taken by the kc's photographer to constitute a record of the WIN. But the point is that the hander did NOT focus on setting the pooch up to be a correct GSD!

The easiest access I can offer to the correct structure of the GSD is Dr Walter Gorrieri's drawing in my answer at
https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20150103105035AArCaz8
Those who want to read an article (by an SV Foreign List judge who for many years selected the Siegers at his nation's MBE/SiegerShows) about the differences between Dr Gorrieri's image (the one Louis uses has the "hair" on) and a drawing by an Australian all-breeds judge, can work through it at
http://www.louisdonald.com/archives-1986-the-great-debate---a-question-of-type.html


Les The Kiwi Pauling

by Les The Kiwi Pauling on 24 July 2016 - 09:07

[LadyBossGSD] 9.7.2016 - 12:07


"Les - My use of the term WL/Showline seems to be correct here in the states."
No - it is immensely widespread - especially in the USA where "show people" went their open way almost before WW2 had ended but there was a strong "DogSport" movement thanks to the efforts of fans of “Training Dogs - A Manual” by Konrad Most, considered a leading authority and a pioneer of dog training for guard purposes with the police & armed forces. was published in Germany in 1910. In 1954
(the year of his death) it was published in English by Popular Dogs. In the USofA Most
* is considered the father of dog training and given credit for developing SchH training there. 

But wide use doesn't make it correct. There is MUCH terminology used by dog-owners that is definitely incorrect. An example is all the DogSport people who claim that their pooch "is titled". But titles are terms such as CEO, Ch,. Dr., King, Ob.Ch., Lady, Sieger that go IN FRONT OF the titled individual's name. Whereas BH, BSc., CGC, DVM, HGH, IPO, PhD are qualifications and go AFTER the qualified individual's name.
 (
* I haven't checked. but imagine that Most trained at Lechnernich, near Berlin where, in 1884, the German Army established the first organised Military School for training war dogs. In 1885 it wrote the first training manual for MWDs.)

"Although I prefer to have structure and substance in my Shepherds others like something different or have different views as to what they prefer."
People are entitled to their preferences. I, for instance, prefer my GSDs near the lower end of the height scale and to be have richly defined contrasty dark sable coat. 
But if folk wish to call a particular pooch a
GSD then they have to ensure that it fits EVERYTHING stated in FCI#166 and avoids all the DQs.

"As for the dock diving ... They have not had any ear issues at all"
I hope that continues. But I see no value whatsoever in dock diving, and regard the possible consequences unwarranted.



[Markobytes] 9.7.2016 - 22:07

"Mr Pauling"
Wow - such formality! Are your sure you don't want to call me Your Royal Highness? VBG.
The ex-pupils I worked for or with after I retired couldn't overcome the childhood habit, so didn't call me Les. 


"The judging I saw varied, there were multiple breed judges who's breed of choice was not a GSD, who had their own view of what qualities a GSD should posses."
You being in the USA, I would imagine that most of the judges who owned AKC GSDs would also have "
their own view", favouring aspects I regard as alien to the GSD breed.

"Other AKC judges are totally ignorant of the promise that the German Shepherd Dog Club of America made in order to hold their seat in the WUSV,"
Were I a GSD, both my ears would now be erect and aimed straight at you! WHAT "
promise" was that? I doubt it has been kept - but the WDA won't be able to take the GSDCAmerica's seat on the WUSV unless it can gain acceptance from the AKC.

"judging in AKC shows will vary to the point where one judge can hate your dog one day and the next day another judge will love the same dog."
As proven by the occasional "Prick-Eared Basset" listed as an AKC Ch., even though the vast majority of AKC Chs - especially those whose points came from GSDCAmerica shows - are "NAmerican Ski-Sloped Dogs".

 


Markobytes

by Markobytes on 24 July 2016 - 16:07

    I don't think those involved in AKC showing appreciate a critique coming from the FCI perspective, but I thourough enjoyed the critique. The neck being pulled up is to give the dog a 'look of the Eagles". The FCI standard states "Upper and lower leg are of approximately the same length and form an angle of approximately 120 degrees" whereas the AKC standard states "with both upper and lower thigh well muscled, forming as nearly as possible a right angle". I really appreciate Mr Pauling take the utility of a dog herding sheep in consideration while forming his critique. There is going to be disagreement with Les's observations on the relationship between the forelegs and the upper arm, but it won't come from me. The AKC people believe this is a superior arrangement and it allows the dog's shoulder to open fully while gaiting. I believe the arrangement is destructive and places too much strain on the elbow, and does not help the dog maneuver on uneven terrain. The promise I wrote of was the GSDCA's responsibility as a member of the WUSV to breed to a uniform standard.

      Les, you keep bringing up the WDA, I can assure you that there are only three people on the North American continent that wish to see the WDA in control of anything. The whole organization was brought down while trying to award one of the board members with the top kennel group in perpetuity.

      This has gotten off topic, but it has been educating. Sunsilver's posting the image of the dog was both encouraging and a proper example of the venue that this thread was intended.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 25 July 2016 - 06:07

Succinctly put, Marko.  Thumbs UpThumbs UpThumbs Up


Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 25 July 2016 - 11:07

Les, I saw the photo on FB, and decided to post it because the handler is a FB friend, and bred the mother of one of my dogs. I also wanted to show LadyBoss that sables COULD win in the AKC ring, unlike the SV ring, where they are often shunted to the back of the class, ever since one of the SV presidents decided sable wasn't a good colour for a GSD. I also wanted to drag the thread back on topic for a change. I never dreamt the dog would have its conformation thoroughly picked to pieces, and since it's not my dog, I'm not very comfortable with that. What Smile

 

As American show lines go, I think she's a very pretty girl. There are certain things in the ASL dogs I don't care for, such as the overangulation/hock walking, but the same goes for the SV style dogs, many of which are also being bred with overly long upper thighs. This combined with the exaggerated topline and sloped pelvis often produces a dog so unbalanced that it can no longer trot properly, and the front leg is still in the air while the opposite hind leg is on the ground.

The trot is, and always will be a 2-beat gait, so please don't try to tell me this is correct movement.

Edited to add: it will be very interesting to see how - and if - the GSDCA is able to reconcile its breed standard with the FCI standard. I know many AKC judges believe the roached back/curved topline/whatever you want to call it is totally wrong, and would never award a placing to a dog with a back that looked like that.

An image

 

(Picture courtesty of Linda Shaw, IIRC!)

 

 


Reliya

by Reliya on 25 July 2016 - 15:07

SS, is that picture supposed to show "one of these things is not like the other?"

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 25 July 2016 - 16:07

Yeah, "Spot the Odd One Out". :-)





 


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