Training pictures, post em up! - Page 7

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by Juno on 21 September 2018 - 13:09

Hi Duke,

I said Malis “might” be a little easier to find than GSDs. In any case I get your point.

by duke1965 on 21 September 2018 - 14:09

also healt and nerve issues are getting bigger in malis, tailchasers, sidesuckers,kennelbiters, spinal problems and airwayproblems are more and more

and if you want spectaculair work, more and more GSD are not less than a mali today

(for those who didnt notice, I prefer GSD Wink Smile)


by joanro on 21 September 2018 - 15:09

Gustav, that is the truth! Out of six in my last litter ( the one with the ten month old in the video page 2) three of them went to families as companion dogs, not difficult to manage and solid temperaments, but suit the families well.

by Juno on 21 September 2018 - 15:09

Duke,

I am with you in my preference for GSDs. Based on my (limited) experience compared to quite a few of you on this forum I have the following observation by watching a Mali and my GSD being worked last evening. For reference it is more or less the same exercise as in the video posted earlier. So the comments pertain to the fighting style of these 2 dogs representing 2 different breeds. Both dogs were about the same size but my GSD is probably 5-8 lbs heavier.

My dog got worked first - he came in hard and bit hard and only countered (pushing bites) as needed. Once the decoy was down he would hold him down, if decoy tried to get up he would take a deeper bite and push him down to prevent him from getting up. If the decoy went limp he would still maintain the bite without releasing the pressure and only out if told to. As per decoy the bite pressure was crushing to the point he asked me to out him as he was really getting hurt. Dog was calm, countered pretty much on the same spot (unless we shifted from a bicep to a tricep bite after an out and rebite) with deep bites every so often and very rarely growled, and kept increasing pressure. As per decoy it felt like being held in a vice with teeth that kept increasing the pressure with fuller and fuller bites to the point he was even wondering how the dog was breathing. Ended the fight without the dog losing his stamina. Exercise lasted about 12-13 mins.

Mali - came in faster and bit hard but was much more aggressive in the sense that he was countering non stop. Much less calm and was relentless in his countering. Once the decoy was down and tried to get up dog would pull on he arm to prevent decoy from getting leverage to get up. The bite was more of a slashing one in the sense he was countering so much which means without the suit there would be some nasty wounds all over. If decoy went limp dog would lose bite intensity and self outed and had to be commanded to re engage (this might be a training issue or genetic). Dog would actively rebite after an out and do it fast and furious. As the session continued dog was tiring fast and bite strength got somewhat weaker (as per decoy). Session lasted about 10 mins.

It was fascinating to see the 2 completely different fighting styles. As per decoy - if you were the bad guy the end result would be the same - TOAST. The Mali’s bites were savage and would create major flesh and tendon damage, the GSD’s bite was crushing and would constantly keep dialing it up and very deep.

They are both awesome dogs, just take care of business differently. I still prefer my GSD and that is just my personal preference only.

by duke1965 on 21 September 2018 - 15:09

each type of work come with each breed, its very hard to put labels on any breed by comparing one or two dogs, have to look at the larger numbers, as long as you have fun with your individual dog its fine,

the balance in quality/availability shows as several american vendors pay more for same quality malinois as for GSD, nothing to do with superiour breed, everything to do with finding good ones


same with good labradors, prices doubled over last year, but I can tell you that it doesnot matter how much money you bring, the available dogs are still the same in both quality and numbers available

by apple on 21 September 2018 - 17:09

Juno,
I get what you are saying. Good Mals tend to bite like a shark with great intensity and thrashing of the head. I believe that is because they have so much drive they become frustrated so easily and what you are seeing in addition to the more intense prey drive of a GSD, is frustration aggression. GSDs tend to bite more like a lion. They grip hard and hold on, countering in some, but not like a Mal. You see the same thing with a Mal playing with a ball on a string or a small tug compared to a GSD.  Another issue is foundation training.  The Dutch tend to train their young Mals by teaching them to bite a quart size plastic bleach jug tied to a buggy whip.  Thet believe in order to grip the jug, the pup has to bite harder and deeper to get a grip.  They also think the jug resembles a natural prey object more than a rag or a tug and they want the pup to learn to hunt their prey and hold it down with their feet while biting. With a rag or jute tug, a pup can make a lazy strike and still get some teeth caught in the prey object which is counterproductive to imprinting the young pup to bite hard and deep or he will loose his prey. Some use the line on the buggy whip to simulate the beat of a heart when the pup has the jug/prey pinned down and gripped, thinking this approach is tapping into the dog's instinct to hunt and kill more.
Duke,
I suspect with the popularity of the Malinois increasing, you are going to see a deterioration in the breed, just as has occurred in the GSD. I know some die hard Malinois people who say 10 years ago, finding a really good Mal was quite easy, but not as easy any more.


by duke1965 on 21 September 2018 - 18:09

Apple, dont want to sound like broken record, but modern training is to blame, also modern society,when I came to CZ 8 years ago, I went to czech malinois nationals and saw multiple extremely nice dogs, not talking points/training, but performance wise, this year visited some championships and it was dissapointing, must say, Im not looking with a sport eye, because I saw some really nice performances trainingwise

the second thing I notice in malinois today, is that everybody is looking to other countries to get something better then they have, dutch people buy in breed in Czech and scandinavia, Czech people breed and buy in holland and belgium, etc etc

in czech, 99% of the malinois I find suitable for policework have Cartouche bomavzde in the pedigree and several of his sons and daughters produce nice malinois, I have 5 real nice malinois females for breeding, they all come from Slovakia, but also several with cartouche blood

here is a female that produced real good dogs      http://kchbo.com/genealogie/genealogie.php?strana=1&topMenu=1&cat=1&gPage=1&gName=&gSearch=&gCmku=1&gAct=detail&action=home&ID=15750

 

The problem is that we are looking at trained behaviour instead of dog qualities, and like someone stated earlyer, high drives can cover up a lot of crap.

same goes for GSD, where some are trying to breed GSD with mali drives, unfurtunately with that comes nerve issues as well


by ValK on 21 September 2018 - 18:09

Juno, to talk fight, you need first create for dog a situation, which would be perceived by dog as such.
in your video the dog did his work in the prey. thus no any noticeable signs of aggression and fury.
predator do not kill his prey because of anger.
secondly, there no way the real fight gonna last for 10+ minutes.
fight itself is short, fierce and very intense. deep bite usually isn't suitable for fight and dogs (wolves, coyotes and all others) does employ sharp, tearing bite to inflict maximum injuries/hurt to opponent.
in domain of dogs training you should chose either way to train your dog - hunter or fighter. you can't do both of this in one dog successfully.

by joanro on 21 September 2018 - 19:09


by duke1965 on 21 September 2018 - 19:09

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/belgian_malinois/dog.html?id=1650531-cartovche-bomazde





 


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