CHOOSING A 6 MONTH OLD PUP WITH CIVIL DRIVE - Page 6

Juno, I think you're right. I get the names and videos confused sometimes. Last one I remember the dog was being offered the leg and started up towards the chest.

Jesse, 

Juno:
Last night we were in a brand new field and we tied up my dog to a fence and I walked away, then decoy approached him and just walked up to him without agitating but just a slow menacing walk and look. I could see that my dog was a little unsure, as this was new, he was tied up, I was not there, there was someone filming him with a camera and flashlight, there were people on the other side of the fence.

so, what was his response/action?

emoryg:
I think along the lines of, a dog in fight can never take flight.  Despite how ugly it got, I needed him to be the aggressor no matter what the criminal was doing to him.

impossible today to find this type of dogs.
all dogs (even breeders who claims to breed for LE/PP) do bred on prevailing pet's base.
dominance toward human seems extinct from breeding for good, and been replaced by prey.

Valk,

He was a little unsure at the beginning, I felt that - knowing him, but he barked and never backed down, his first 2 bites were a little weak and he did not get good grips and slipped the bite but after that he overcame it and was his usual self - strong bites with counters to get a better bite, tail up wagging, no hackles. He released on command the first time when I told him to from a distance, the second time around I had to give the command 3 times and had to step up to him to release as his confidence was up and he was not willing to give up the fight. So no problems at the end but I could see he was under a little stress at the beginning. You could see the contrast when he was on a prey bite - a lot more relaxed. Was very pleased at the outcome.

Emoryg,

Yes it was a leg bite that could have gone wrong.

sounds not bad.
seems he's little bit lacking innate aggressiveness but that not hard to work out over few session.

Valk,

I agree, and I am sure the next time around he will get stronger. On a side note, before we did the bite session at the fence we had finished obedience and I had him on a down stay but tied to the fence as there were folks on the other side (it was a chain link fence) training for football. One of them ran up to the fence and came too close to my dog and he went at him - lunging and barking. He was fine with them till they came too close, just watching them but not reacting - it was only when one of them ran up to the fence that he reacted. I removed him from the fence after that till later when we did the bite session mentioned before. I have the video of the bite session.

Juno-
Just out of curiosity...
Would your dog have aggressed in the same way towards the strangers training football, that got too close to your dog on the other side of the fence, before you did the first light defence training as you described a few comments ago?
Or was this aggressing behavior towards strangers, that got too close, a new behavior?

Correction: Sorry Juno...I just reread your post and you write this was BEFORE the session. Didn’t catch that the first time round!

I have 40 years with GSD, mostly (99% s/l) and I can say I probably could not pick civil in a 6 mo. pup unless it attacked me when I tried exam.

I have owned civil dogs, but it was mostly an accident. not something I knew how to choose.

have a close partner/co.breeder whose GSD S/L (AKC Champion, ROM producer) never exhibited any civil behavior
in her 14 year life. and I spent a lot of time/handled this dog.

except one time when an intruder broke into his home and the dog attacked, brought blood and held the burglar in the kitchen until L/E arrived.

there is just not one formula fits all for a GSD that will act as a GSD when the situation arises.

overall, I think some good advice on this thread from susie, valk and duke. maybe others.

still learning,
Rik

Rick, sure there need to be some practical experience but that's not very complex task if one has patience for observation and can feel the pup.
previously i posted three main types of dog's "civility". any dog to some degree are "civil" but only #3 can be considered as such. not because he can bite but because he doing this as a way of selfexpression and will do it regardless of any obstacles.

thus when testing the pup, one need to look for levels:
of threshold for self preservation
of aggression threshold
of boldness/self confidence
of stubbornest in acting
of reaction to irritant/excitatory factors
of recovery from stress
of ability to be independent alone in unfamiliar surrounding.

that's can be tested and seen (even preferred*) in pup as young as  5~6 weeks. 
*at that age pup not yet have much of learned experience and acts in the way  he is genetically hardwired to act, which is foundation of future adult dog.

Self preservation could also involve a dog that is prone to flight.
Dogs can have a high or low threshold for defensive aggression and still be civil.
Some very confident dogs can be civil, but not out of aggression, but out of the extreme desire to bite and prey drive. They are not mistrustful such as Duke described.
I don't seen stubbornness correlated with civil aggression. There are dogs that are stubborn that are civil and dogs that are not stubborn that are civil.
Reaction to excitatory factors is so vague, it has no meaning to me. A dog can be very playful and not at all civilly aggressive.
Recovery from stress has more to do with nerves than being civil.
A dog being independent does not predict if he will be civil. It simply means he is independent.

apple
you do not look for stand alone trait but for bundle deal, where all mentioned traits are satisfactory and will provide backing for your objective.
absence, insufficiency or excess of one will bring disbalance and thus failure.
idea to pair together strong aggression with high prey pretty bad idea.