Putting Drives on top of a nerve base.: Breeders" views? - Page 6

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by duke1965 on 27 May 2017 - 13:05

ok VK I will explain

every dog has stronger and weaker points, geneticly, so ideally in breeding I want to find a male that has overall good qualities, but is exeptionally strong on the points I want to improve on on my female and/or overall breedingprogram

my first point is that if, these breeders that allways breed the last champion male, I cannot imagine that choice is allways made because every last champion accidently is strong on the points they want to improve on in their females.

secondly, can you tell me the geneticly strong points and weak points of any of the latest champions, is he a natural good tracker or just trained well, is his apport natural strong and fast or do we look at result of Ecollar and is bitework only good on sportfield/sleeve  or will he perform anyplace anytime

 

Todays training and trainers are so good at the top that they can make a normal dog with good prey and fooddrive and not to stubborn into a champion, but what are you looking at at most championship, IMO we are not looking at dogs genetics, we are looking at traininglabour

now im not saying there are no good dogs at the top, there are still trainers that want a strong dog to work with, but for breedingchoices you have to look past traininglabour and into genetics

 

finally, trained behaviour needs triggers and rewards, genetic qualities dont, now if you take away triggers and rewards the trained behaviour will eventually fail, genetic behaviour wont


by joanro on 27 May 2017 - 14:05

According vk's briefs, if the genetics aren't there, training is not possible. As in, if the dog is NOT a 'natural' tracker (genetic tracker) then the dog cannot be 'magicked' to track. Not a true premise.

If that ^^ premise is true, how then, can random Brahman bulls be trained to do what is pictured on previous page?

He did claim :

"No animal including a human can be magicked to be better than their genetic potential in any venue."


Temperament is most deffinately genetic. And a good trainer can train most any animal 'to be better than their genetic potential' .


Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 27 May 2017 - 16:05

There is a difference between trained and genetics.

Just look at Nosework. Any dog can be trained for Nosework and compete, but you wouldn't want most of these dogs (there are some seriously nice ones) out in the field searching for Bombs because the genetics aren't there. Of course you can train them to be better than their genetic potential and some of them look better than some operational dogs, however, would they hold up under pressure? How long could they search without falling apart?

And should they be bred? In my opinion = NO!

Absolutely not!

That is exactly what got us into this mess. Don't get me wrong, I love how advanced training has become and that we can train most of our dogs almost conflict free. However, there are some disadvantages. Some dogs are trained so well that you almost can't tell the difference between training and genetics.


Koots

by Koots on 27 May 2017 - 16:05

Interesting point about nosework, competition and 'work'. You can compete with a trained dog that has less genetic potential but decent training and things will be fine even if the dog misses articles, etc. Things will NOT be fine if you try to 'work' a bomb dog that does not have the genetic potential to work correctly, intensely and for long duration even if it has excellent training.

 

Damn, BE, you edited your post as I was composing mine, lol.


by joanro on 27 May 2017 - 16:05

Barenf: "There is a difference between trained and genetics. "

"Just look at Nosework. Any dog can be trained for Nosework and compete, but you wouldn't want most of these dogs (there are some seriously nice ones) out in the field searching for Bombs because the genetics aren't there."



That ^^^^ is precisely the point Centurion, Gustav, Duke, and I have been making....an animal can be trained to perform the same job/behaviors without the 'natural' genetics present, but the traits will NOT be passed on to offspring. That was the point I was making per Triple Crown winners are not all producers of exceptional race horses. Plus all the other examples I gave, of training beyond genetics that happens regularly.

I'm not saying that a trained dog without genetics is better than the dog with the genetic ability. It's not the issue. The issue vk made was that a dog can't be trained beyond it's genetic propensity. Btw, most dogs trained for tracking for an ipo title are not used for bomb work. Likewise, a dog without natural, genetic tracking ability won't be trained for bomb detection.


by joanro on 27 May 2017 - 16:05

Is it training or genetics? That is the question I attempt to answer when I will "test" one of my young dogs minus all the 'prep work' done from whelping box till adult. I want to 'see' the natural ability in a youngster without the influence of conditioning.

by duke1965 on 27 May 2017 - 17:05

and that is exactly why we dont look at trained behaviour, but we TEST untrained behaviour in dogs for LE

Baerenfangs Erbe

by Baerenfangs Erbe on 27 May 2017 - 17:05

Ditto. Same here Duke. I never test trained behavior. I want to see the raw genetics for SAR and even for IPO and Sport. It's the only way to ensure it's there. And it's also why I want to see the dogs in an unfamiliar environment and in Novel situations. Environmental confidence is big to me. It goes right along with Temperament. Especially when it's a younger dog.

Every day I'm watching dogs coming through the door at our shop. Just the way they enter into the building tells you a lot about the dog and his true nature. People would be surprised about how many dogs come in crawling on all four because they don't have confidence but as soon as you pull out a ball or food, they forget about the environment. That's not true confidence though.


by joanro on 27 May 2017 - 17:05

An example of a behavior that is not trained but genetic in one of my pups since she was 4 mo old; when she gets hot while playing ball, she will take the ball to the 9 quart water bucket and drop the ball in. Then after it sinks, she dunks her head up to her ears to fetch it from the bottom. Then brings it to me, I throw it, she retrieves the ball and goes back to the water bucket to drop it in. Even if she misses the bucket she will pick it up and try again, then dunks her head in the water, repeats behavior.
Her great great granddam did the same thing. That female had other pups who would do the water retrieve on their own.
I don't even know how one would "train" that behavior without causing the dog to think it's being drowned...but throw the ball into the creek, and these dogs will 'fish' underwater till they come up with it.

On the other hand, i've seen dogs with zero natural retrieve being 'forced' to retrieve, using electric, just enough to be able to pass ipo. Ipo titles don't tell the whole story about a dog's gentetic makeup.


by duke1965 on 27 May 2017 - 17:05

about ten years ago I was training with a world level malinois trainer and saw him putting forced retrieve/apport on his dog, that had natural retrieving drive,it was no pretty picture, happens cleaner today, anyway I asked him why he would use forced retrieve when the dog would retrieve natural

answer was that to make sure the dog does it everywhere and allways and clean for the points, forced retrieve was a better option

now this dog had natural drive as well, but  i have seen dogs with low drive being forced into a nice apport, and slow and chewy dogs make a fast and clean apport without chewing with Ecollar training, but what do you get when breeding to these dogs

  






 


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